Turnbull USFA Pre-War SAA?

[Virginia Gentleman]

I noticed that Turnbull offers USFA SAAs that are Pre-War with Carbonia Blue and his signature Case Colors with special serial numbers for $1150.00.  This seems like a good deal since it is like getting the Armory Blue option for free as the gun is at or below MSRP compared to even their regular gun that has modern blue they call Dome Blue.  What do you all think?

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

It does sound good.  One thing to remember, those USFA MSRP's are about 20% higher than what any reputable dealer is actually going to charge you.  I recently received a gun that I special ordered through my dealer.  USFA's price was a bit over $1500.  Dealer charged me $1199.

[Virginia Gentleman]

What kind of USFA gun did you special order?  I know that they do run a bit lower than MSRP as you said, but not for the Armory Blue Pre-War guns, they are more to begin with and end up being a few hundred dollars more than the Turnbull Pre-War he is offering.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

VG,
It was a 4", nickel, sheriff's model.  About 10 months from the time I ordered it to the time it was delivered.
CJF 

[Virginia Gentleman]

Wow, talk about a long delivery time!   US FA has been busy making lots of toys, I just hope the prices hold.

[r0gue]

So I understand that Turnbull does the USFA case coloring.  Is he also doing the carbona blue (is it the same as Armory blue)?

Why is he selling a Pre War?  Is the only difference his serial numbers?  Or are they modified in other ways?

I'm so confused...

[Kinda Sudden]

I noticed that while Turnbull offers the gun with BP frame option, he refers to it as "cowboy classics" I would assume the finish is the same since he does the USFA guns but with the "cowboy Classic" designation and the special serial no.s, you got to wonder what else is different. I thought USFA did the polishing in house and Turnbull did the CCH and oven bluing. On the Cowboy classics he mentions that he polishes them just like the originals (Colt) were done. Someone asked if the Armory blue is the same as Carbonia blue. I would think that the finish from both USFA and Turnbull is the same as the same shop is doing them. Technically from a terminology point of view, some would tell you that real Carbonia blue does not exist as Colt never used it, only Smith and Wesson did and that exact formula is lost. However, oven blue is oven blue and whether or not Carbonia oil, sperm oil or whatever is used the results vary but are similar. Anyone know if the Turnbull guns come boxed the same as the USFA ones? He mentions they come with a rug.

[Rusty Johnson]

You might want to take a look at this link before you quote "Colt never used it"
http://www.ronsgunshop.com/carbonia.html

[Rusty Johnson]

More info I found on bluing (fyi)



Carbonia Blue/Charcoal Blue: Another name for this type of finish is "machine blueing" because of the process in which the coloration is applied to the steel. Let me state right here that my method of this type of finish is exactly the same as it was done by the manufacturers like Colt, Winchester, Smith & Wesson, and almost all other arms makers before WW II. By 1939 the hot salt method of blueing dominated arms manufacture and did away with  the Carbonia finish. In my opinion, the Carbonia process is the most beautiful finish. It is glossy black in appearance which has a depth to it, that is like a mirror (when the metal is polished to a high luster). Most all Arms manufacturers used this method of blueing prior to WWII. Some of the best examples of this finish, and just how highly skilled the polishers were at that time, can be seen by looking at early 1900's Colt's. To be more specific, if you can examine an Officers model DA, that has something like around at least 90% of it's original finish, you will see exactly what I mean. There are some different methods out there that other shops may use and say it's the correct finish, but to duplicate the factory finish you have to do it exactly like the factories did prior to WW II. This was, and still is for me, a gas furnace operation.  Around the turn of the century, many of the arms manufacturers were using different forms of  nitrate solutions for their gun metal finishes. The demand for a more efficient output of production brings along the Carbonia method. The trade name for this finish was Carbonia Blueing, and was developed in the United States by The American Gas Furnace Co. in what I believe to be around the year 1905.  This finish was used on almost everything steel prior to WW II, like screws and hardware, tools, and arms. You name it, if it was steel and black at that time, it was more than likely blued using this method. At the time it was the most efficient manor in which to blue large amounts of steel. Carbonia derives it's name from the oil mixture that is used to produce this color, which is of course called "Carbonia oil". Once the parts are final polished and meticulously cleaned, they are not touched by a human hand until after the bluing process.  At the time the correct color is obtained on the parts, they are removed from the furnace and quenched in an oil solution. This is the most costly and time consuming finish to produce, the care of polishing and metal preparation generally exceeds that of all other finishes. The end result though, is a finish that is just as beautiful, and hard wearing as the factories had produced over 60 years earlier

[Kinda Sudden]

Just because Rons Gun Shop says it is so doesn't make it so.  Carbonia only means tbat Carbonia oil was used, there were many formulas mostl which were/are  closely guarded secrets. Many different formulas with and without Carbonia can yield similar results. I still say Colt never used it.

CARBONIA Heat/Chemical

Now here's one of the most mis-used, least-understood words in the entire bluing lexicon. 'Carbonia' Blue was a S&W proprietary method used in the period from before WWI thru the 1960's. It was also known as 'Smith & Wesson blue'. It was ONLY done by Smith. Never by Colt or any other manufacturer. Carbonia bluing resulted in that deep-black/glossy high-polish finish that Smith was noted for during the years they used it. It's similar to 'DuLite' and Charcoal bluing as far as the process goes, but certainly not the same. The Carbonia oil (a product of American Gas Furnace Co.) was used by many gun manufacturers in their own versions of 'DuLite' bluing, but the use of Carbonia oil does not make it 'Carbonia Blue' as only S&W did it. DuLite bluing, such as Colt did on their 1918/1919 military model 1911's is an industrial/utility finish. It was generally done over a fairly coarse-polished and/or sandblasted surface, and is a dullish, dark-grey or near-black color when used in that way. It was also far less durable than the S&W Carbonia Blue. And there's a funny story to go with the S&W Carbonia Blue. I'm telling it like I heard it, and I have no idea if it's true.
The basis of S&W Carbonia Blue was an oil mixture (pine-tar based) made by the American Gas Furnace Company, and they supplied the oil in bulk to S&W, who mixed it with bone charcoal and other 'stuff' to make their own Carbonia product. Years ago, by the way, I contacted the American Gas company for info on the process, and they were kind enough to give me a list of the chemicals/ingredients used by Smith for the process, but it was just a list of chemicals, not a formula. So, here's the story:
Apparently, only one old-timer at Smith knew the exact formula and he had it in a notebook which he kept. He eventually retired from Smith, and later died. His widow, so the story goes, contacted Smith and offered to sell them the formula in the notebook for $50k. I guess she knew that her husband had the only written copy of the secret formula. Well, Smith had gone into hot-bluing by then, and wasn't really interested in shelling out $50k to her for the Carbonia formula. So, she burned the notebook. And that was the end of Carbonia. The moral of the story is that all of these companies who now say they do 'Carbonia' bluing, or worse yet 'Colt Carbonia blue', are just you-know-what. Maybe they can do something that looks similar to S&W Carbonia Blue, but it ain't. And Carbonia blue is not Charcoal blue. It's very black the way Smith did it, not blue, and please, Colt never did it. Carbonia, when applied to a surface that is not expertly high-polished, results in just a so-so utility kind of blue. Time and temperature controls were critical in obtaining the exact color Smith desired. I've still got the list of ingredients, but there are numerous items on the list, and you'd need to combine them in the correct measures to get the actual S&W formula. I've combined most of the ingredients (or similar ones) in various percentages and at one time did quite a bit of R&D with it, but I never got too interested in pursuing it much further. It was hard enough to find any whale, let alone a sperm whale, so I never had any sperm-whale oil. That was just one ingredient I couldn't locate. American Gas Furnace Company doesn't make the stuff they supplied to Smith any more, so it's a futile pursuit as well as further proof that true Carbonia bluing no longer exists. However, the Carbonia look can be simulated or duplicated by other means.

                                                               Bill Adair

[Virginia Gentleman]

Look it up, Dulite bluing is hot salt blue.  Carbonia and Colt blue are both gas furnance methods with one using a thicker quenching oill afterwards resulting in a darker finish. 

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Hey, VG!!!  WELCOME BACK! Where the heck have you been?  Some of us old regulars here on the USFA board have missed you.  Hope all has been going well for you and that you will start frequenting this board again.
CJF

[Kinda Sudden]

Look it up, Dulite bluing is hot salt blue. Carbonia and Colt blue are both gas furnance methods with one using a thicker quenching oill afterwards resulting in a darker finish. 

Dulite was / is a company name and during the many years they have been around offered both hot caustic bluing and furnace bluing. Carbonia is the name of the quenching oil used and while all furnace bluing is similar, the original Carbonia bluing recipe was only used by Smith and Wesson like Bill Adair says. "Look it up, Dulite bluing is hot salt blue" and Dulite bluing was also furnace bluing.