Newbie gettin' ready to buy his first guns and gear

[Black Powder]

Well howdy, y'all, from the north shore.

I've been in reading/research and dream mode and getting anxious to pull the trigger as it were.

Took the consensus advice and went to my first shoot yesterday as a welcome guest.  My thanks to the kind folks at Firelands Peacemakers.  No question I asked was too stupid and I got plenty to gnaw on.

So, here's where I'm headed:

•  .45 cal for the revolvers, Colt clone.
•  '92 carbine in 44/40.  Gotta have that saddle ring.
•  12 gauge with exposed hammers

I'm pretty much into the TV Western look, although I am a stickler for historic accuracy, but only to a point.  Can't help it, Dillon's holster and that Arvo Ojala/Andy Anderson buscadaro with that buckle on the holster is what I want.  Apologies to you purists.  Single holster, not a double.  Question on this below. 

I am opting for .45 cal revolvers and 44/40 lever action for historic reasons and I do want to shoot black powder.  I shoot Civil War musket plus an 1860 army now and I like the bang and the smoke!  Thought about a conversion kit for the '60 Army but that'll have to wait for now.

I'm pretty much set on brands, and I don't really want to provoke a discussion on this, but I do have a couple questions (finally!):

•  Do I go stainless?  I really like that case hardened and blued look, but the practical side speaks to me as well.  It also changes my first choice of brand and model and bumps me financially.  Anybody have strong opinions on this?  Will I grow weary of the smoke and hassle of BP anyway?  Have you?
•  Still undecided about 7½" or 5½" barrels.  Inclination is 7½".  I'm not going to be doing fast-draw.
•  That large loop lever looks so cool.  Is it totally stupid?  I know, if it was good enough for the Duke, how could it be?  I ain't gonna be doing any twirling (well not in public!), but has anybody ponied up the extra $100 and regretted it?
•  I'm not convinced to purchase a matched pair of revolvers, other than same caliber.  I figure my fictional character will not likely have had the purchase power to get a brace of revolvers any more than I can now, so I'm actually thinking about getting a shorter (4¾") for the second revolver.
•  What are your thoughts on a shoulder holster instead of a cross-draw?  Discussion at the shoot varied.  Some concerns about sweeping, but this was countered with the comment, "No more so than with a cross-draw."  I don't believe this is against the club's rules, but perhaps it is elsewhere?  I'm not minimalizing this at all; these folks are definitely safety first, fun second. 

So I'm motivated by the look as well as the shear fun of it.  The snow'll be flying soon and although some of these folks say they will have an informal shoot in January, it's not necessary for me to rush out immediately on anything.  Interestingly, these folks were saying they'd have a shoot so long as it was over 15.  Some thought they were referring to participants, but they were referring to degrees.

I'll hold off on more questions for now.  Y'all were correct – looks like a lot of fun and hanging out with a bunch of enthusiastic, good-natured and generous-with-their-time folks ain't such a bad way to spend a Saturday.  Thanking y'all for you advice, encouragement, etc.

Black Powder
Cleveland, OH

[Lucky Irish Tom]

Spend some time in the Darksiders Den if you are thinking about shooting Holy Black.  I have found that I have no more cleaning with BP than with smokeless.  So go with the guns that make you happy.

The different caliber between rifle and pistols will just mean you need additional gear and have to switch out when you load ammo, if you are planning on reloading, which is the most economical if you shoot BP.

I wouldn't have the big loop lever for my rifle, it's just going to make it that much more work when tryting to lever at a match.

I don't know what the rules are regarding shoulder holsters, if the club you are shooting with allow them then that's fine.  If you plan to shoot at other matches you might want to check the rules for other clubs.  You can also go online and check out the SASS rules on shoulder holsters, I am not sure if they are allowed.

Be Safe and Have fun it's a great sport, and the best part about it is the people.

[Black Powder]

Thanks for the advice about the Darksider's Den.  Posted a truncated question there.  You're right about the people in this sport.

BP

[Deadeye Don]

BP,  From your initial posting you appear to be headed the SASS direction.  If you head towards NCOWS, the rules are a tad different and that Buscadaro rig you want would NOT be allowed since hollywood made that one up.  The choice of 44-40 for a 92 is a great one. You wont be dissapointed.  I too would avoid that big loop gun for matches.  Stainless is great for a number of reasons.  You can get stainless that has the look of polished nickel.  If you shoot NCOWS just make sure the stainless you buy is shiny and not a matte finish.  I personally think the 7.5 inch barrels look the coolest and you may actually get better accuracy with them.  The main thing you need to remember is that this is YOUR fantasy in the making come true.   Do what you want and have fun.  Regards.  Deadeye.

[Jefro]

Welcome BP, everything sounds like you're ready to roll except the big lever. 44-40s a great caliber, the 92 can be a little finiky sometimes feedung the bottle neck cartridge but can be made to run smoothly. Check out Steves Gunz, he's the 92 specialist. Good luck and have fun.
http://www.stevesgunz.com/

   Jefro,   Relax-Enjoy

[Marshal Will Wingam]

All the pards here have summed it up nicely for you. I agree about the large loop lever. I've tried one and it's a PITA to shoot. Cool appearance but not practical. The only suggestion I'd have is to go with all one caliber for convenience. If you're going to be reloading, 45 Colt is much easier. The guys I know that are loading 44-40 sacrifice a couple cases in every hundred or so. 44-40 is totally authentic in both your pistols and rifle. I prefer 45 Colt because I just like the caliber but it never was a rifle caliber. I can live with that concession for convenience and reloading ease.

[litl rooster]

 If you wear a shoulder holster you need to learn the cross draw dance, With an extra step throwed in.  Tried it been there, but lost the T shirt.  I still use the holster for hunting and such

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

                    I agree with what Will Wingam said,= TOTALLY

                                      Ten Wolves 

[Oklahomabound]

I shoot CAS in SASS and use .45 Colts... one is stainless and the other is blued and case hardened....  no difference in cleaning them up.....  also shoot the .45 Colt in the lever gun as well (convenience in reloading).....

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I will attempt to answer your questions according to my experience.

•  Do I go stainless?  I really like that case hardened and blued look, but the practical side speaks to me as well.  It also changes my first choice of brand and model and bumps me financially.  Anybody have strong opinions on this?  Will I grow weary of the smoke and hassle of BP anyway?  Have you?

When I first started shooting Black Powder in CAS I believed what I had read and was afraid my guns would turn into piles of rust unless I used Stainless and cleaned them the instant I stopped shooting them. I was shooting a pair of Stainless Ruger Vaqueros at the time. I have since learned that Black Powder is far less corrosive than most people think, guns do not have to be cleaned immidiately, and Stainless is not necessary to shoot Black Powder. I currently shoot blued and case hardened 2nd Generation Colts in 45 Colt with Black Powder and have been doing so for several years now. I almost never clean them the same day I shoot them, I try to get to them within a week, but I have sometimes gone longer. Much longer. While they are starting to show plenty of holster wear, there is no rust from the Black Powder. However I do employ several tricks when I clean my guns to ensure that rust does not happen.

I have not grown weary of the hassle of Black Powder, I love it and can't imagine going back to Smokeless. But it is not for the faint of heart and does require extra commitment that Smokeless shooters don't have to put up with. In addition to trying to find your targets through the haze of smoke, loading for Black Powder is more demanding in some ways than loading for Smokelss. If you are using real Black Powder you must use a bullet lube that is compatable with Black Powder, and you must use plenty of it. Using standard Smokeless bullet lubes will result in hard caked fouling in the gun and on the mechanism that ruins accuracy, binds up the gun, and is difficult to remove. There are several different stratagies to defeat this when shooting Black Powder. There are also the BP subs. Some, like Pyrodex require a BP compatable lube. Others, like Hodgdon's Triple 7 and APP do not require BP lube and can be used with standard Smokeless lube and bullets. In other ways, shooting Black Powder is actually more forgiving than shooting Smokeless. You do not have to be as precise with your powder charges. Although some precision shooters are extremely precise with their charges, generally a grain or two more or less does not matter with BP. Be that innaccuarate with Smokeless and you may be looking at big trouble. There are other fine points, but we don't have to go into them here.

Like I say, you need real commitment if you want to shoot Black Powder. I cast my own bullets for BP, in addition to sizing and lubing them. Even though Black Powder is still slightly cheaper than Smokeless, you go through so much more of it that you wind up spending much more money in powder than Smokeless shooters do. I used to put 7.5 grains of Unique in a 45 Colt. I put in between 34 and 37 grains of Black Powder, depending on what brand I use. There are 7000 grains in a pound. Last time I bought Unique I paid around $16 for a pound, the best price I can find anywhere for Black Powder is $12/pound and that is only when I buy a case of 25 pounds with a friend. You can do the math. Shooting Black Powder is more fun, but it is also more expensive and more work than shooting Smokeless. That's why they invented Smokeless. On the other hand, I do not practice, I just show up and shoot at matches, so I don't have to make as much ammo as more serious Smokeless shooters do.

•  Still undecided about 7½" or 5½" barrels.  Inclination is 7½".  I'm not going to be doing fast-draw.

Using a high riding more traditional style holster, drawing a 7 1/2" barrel from a straight draw strong side holster can be cumbersome. The elbow tends to get tangled in the armpit. A low riding holster like a Buscadero should be more forgiving in this situation, although I have no direct experience with low riding holsters. I have plenty of experience with 7 1/2" and 8" barrels with my high riding Duke rig.

•  That large loop lever looks so cool.  Is it totally stupid?  I know, if it was good enough for the Duke, how could it be?  I ain't gonna be doing any twirling (well not in public!), but has anybody ponied up the extra $100 and regretted it?

I do not know anyone who uses a large loop. They are not practical. When attempting to operate a lever gun quickly you don't want your hand slopping around in an oversized loop, it will just work against you. Even if you are not interested in speed, you will probably find it annoying. The Duke used his large loop '92 for the movies and for spinning his rifle around. He was shooting blanks. We don't spin our rifles or our sixguns in CAS, it is against the rules, and we shoot real bullets.

•  I'm not convinced to purchase a matched pair of revolvers, other than same caliber.  I figure my fictional character will not likely have had the purchase power to get a brace of revolvers any more than I can now, so I'm actually thinking about getting a shorter (4¾") for the second revolver.

That was exactly my thoughts when I purchased my first CAS pistols. I figured that no poor cowhand right off the trail would ever have the cash on hand to buy a matched pair of pistols, rather he would just buy what he could afford when he could afford it. (Of course it is besides the point that very few cowhands owned more than one pistol.) My first CAS pistol was a slightly used blued and case hardened 7 1/2" Ruger Vaquero. The club I was shooting at only used one pistol at the time, so I could wait a while to buy my second pistol. When I went shopping for my second pistol I had the opportunity to buy another Ruger identical to the first one, or a 5 1/2" Stainless one. I thought about it long and hard and went for the 5 1/2" Stainless one. I have always shot mismatched pistols in CAS ever since. By the way, one of my Colts has a 7 1/2" barrel, the other is 4 3/4". I really like the contrast. I think a 5 1/2" barrel is boring. Most shooters will tell you to shoot fast, you must shoot matched pistols of the same caliber, weight and barrel length. They are absolutely correct. However I have always marched to a different drummer and style is more important to me than speed.

•  What are your thoughts on a shoulder holster instead of a cross-draw?  Discussion at the shoot varied.  Some concerns about sweeping, but this was countered with the comment, "No more so than with a cross-draw."  I don't believe this is against the club's rules, but perhaps it is elsewhere?  I'm not minimalizing this at all; these folks are definitely safety first, fun second. 

Shoulder holsters are completely SASS legal. Generally speaking they must follow the same rules as cross draw holsters. They may not deviate more than 30 degrees from the vertical, you must wear your 2 pistols on opposite sides of your body, and you must twist your body, if necessary, when drawing and reholstering so as not to break the 170 rule. You must also do this at the loading and unloading tables so you don't sweep anybody there either. You do not have to dance, step, hop, or do any fancy footwork. That is nowhere in the rules. The rule is about muzzle direction only, not about how you do it. There are ROs who do not understand this and will call you for not taking a step, but they are wrong. Besides, they should be watching the gun, not your feet. There are some clubs that have a local rule regarding taking a step. I never return to those clubs to shoot a second time. (I get a little bit hot under the collar about this issue, since I always use a cross draw rig and am tired of misinformation being disseminated.)

It's uncanny how similar our thinking seems to be. I have shot 44-40 in my rifles and 45 Colt in my pistols since day one in CAS. I have developed a very simple strategy so my ammo does not get mixed up. The first 2 rifles I used in CAS were 100 year old rifles, one a Marlin 1894 and the other a Winchester 1892, both chambered for 44-40 long before anybody ever chambered a rifle for 45 Colt. I have owned the Marlin since the 1970s, so by the time CAS entered my life I was very familiar and comfortable with the cartridge. I wouldn't dream of owning a rifle chambered for 45 Colt, it just isn't right. I won a '92 chambered in 45 Colt last year in a raffle. I never fired it. I sold it and used the money as a down payment on my 44-40 Henry. When I moved over to Black Powder I was amazed how clean the thin brass keeps the action of my rifle. My brass ejects as clean as Smokeless empties, and all the fouling stays in the bore or goes out with the bullet. Almost nothing gets into the action. There are of course downsides to the caliber. It is not difficult to reload, but it is slightly 'fussier' to load than 45 Colt. I very seldom crumple a case anymore, but I do take a little bit more care when loading 44-40 than 45 Colt. 44-40 brass is usually a bit more expensive than 45 Colt, and since it is only rilfe brass that gets lost, not pistol brass, I have to accept the fact that I will probably only get 80%-90% of my slightly more expensive rifle brass back at every match.

If you decide to go for a '92 it will likely feed better with 44-40 than 45 Colt, not worse. The slightly tapered shape of the 44-40 feeds more naturally than the straight sided 45 Colt case. That's why Winchester designed it that way, 45 Colt was designed as a revolver round, and did not need to feed smoothly, since they are stuffed into the cylinder by hand. The '92 action can be a little bit more troublesome than the toggle link actions like the Henry, '66, or '73. The toggle link guns feed the cartridge straight into the chamber like a torpedo being shoved into a torpedo tube on a submarine, The '92 uses a tilting carrier to raise the round from the magazine to the chamber. The round must ride up the carrier at an angle and then pivot to enter the chamber. Sometimes the bullet can catch on the roof of the chamber as it enters. This can be lessened with bullets like a Round Nosed Flat Point. They tend to feed well. Bullets like a Semi Wad cutter can sometimes catch the shoulder on the edge of the chamber when entering. 92's can also tend to get finicky sometimes with very fast shooters. It is possible to outrun them and jam them up. This does not happen with the toggle link guns. The couple of years I used my '92 in CAS I never had any problems with it. It fed reliably, and I never outran it. But I don't shoot real fast. It does tend to pitcher mouth my cases slightly. This can be fixed, I never got around to it.

Hope this has been of some help.

[Black Powder]

Help?  And how!  Thank you, Driftwood, for the time you spent in such a thorough reply.  Thanks to all of you for your advice. 

Man, am I hooked...

I've got my aspirations narrowed down considerably thanks to mulling over your advice and reading additional commentary here on the forum and elsewhere.

Just to be sure, I'll run my choices in fire arms and clothing by the local club where I saw my first shoot, before making my first purchases.

Thanks again, y'all.  Stay safe.

Black Powder

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Man, am I hooked...

Now we got him... 

Glad to hear you got some direction. Be sure to look in now and then.

[litl rooster]

   "Firelands"  "Northshore"       OHIO?

[Lucky Irish Tom]

Now we got him... 

Glad to hear you got some direction. Be sure to look in now and then.

If he's like the rest of us Will by the time he checks out a variety of firearms at his local club he'll have a laundry list as long as his arm of stuff he wants to purchase. 

[Marshal Will Wingam]

If he's like the rest of us Will by the time he checks out a variety of firearms at his local club he'll have a laundry list as long as his arm of stuff he wants to purchase. 

There's a lot to that, Tom. Also, I find that for each item I cross off the list, another couple get added.

[Black Powder]

Howdy everybody –

Yep, North Shore is Ohio.  Firelands was the club I found through this site, fortunately right before their last match before the snow flies.  Although a couple stalwarts were proposing a get together in January.  Makes sense to me...  Very hospitable bunch, more than happy to talk, share opinions, etc.  All pretty much as I'd expected, so I wasn't disappointed.

You're right, Wil, y'all got me.  I'm so stuck in 19th century American history, ever since the days of the CW Centennial.  Back then it was Marx playsets and now it's a black powder CW repro musket and '60 Army.  Now my imagination has woven the tale of the character that's moved out west after the War.  And darned if the world isn't a small place after all, as I've found a number of like-minded enthusiasts here.  And yes, one thing'll get crossed off my wish list only to get replaced by another.  The subject of that elusive derringer hasn't even been broached yet.

I believe Santa will find that I was pretty good this year.  'Least I hope so!     And I'm on my way to Tucson for a visit next week and I reckon I'll find a purveyor of authentic western wear to support while I'm there.  This city gent needs a hat...

BP

[Four Eyed Floyd]

You will find that once "hooked" you'll end up with a bunch of stuff, needed or not it is all cool. I am a newbie only in it for a little less that a year but oh what a year 4 six shooters 2 shotguns and 3 levers. Went from Smokeless to BP and never looked back. Boom and Smoke and flames gotta love it!
And what can I say about the people that you haven't heard from everyone else...they are great!!!

[Black Powder]

...what a year 4 six shooters 2 shotguns and 3 levers.

Surprised you didn't get an intervention.   

I got my eye on making my first purchase, but no reply from the seller.  What, busy at this time of year???

What's the deal on BP subs?  Still smokey and firey but less expensive?  Supposedly less fouling?  Reloading is way down the road.  Although if I get the same strain of this bug that 4I got, who knows?

4I - nice coat.  Mind sharing where you got it?

Merry Christmas

BP

[Driftwood Johnson]

What's the deal on BP subs?  Still smokey and firey but less expensive?  Supposedly less fouling?  Reloading is way down the road.  Although if I get the same strain of this bug that 4I got, who knows?

Howdy

The deal on the subs is since they are not true explosives, storage regulations are usually less restrictive. Real Black Powder is a true explosive, and in addition to needing to meet Federal regulations for its sale and storage, there are often local restrictions that individual municipalities place on real Black Powder. The subs are classified as progressive propellants, no different than modern Smokeless powder from a regulatory standpoint, so there are no extra regulations about their storage and sale than there are for regular Smokeless powders. That means that it will be more likely your local toy shop will have a BP sub for sale than real BP. I used to have to drive about an hour to buy real BP although I could buy the subs right down the road. That dealer stopped selling real BP and now my closest source of supply for the real thing is about 1 1/2 hours away.

Then there is bullet lube. Some of the subs, specifically APP and Triple 7, can be used with regular Smokeless bullets lubed with regualr Smokeless lubes. Other subs, like Pyrodex, require a bullet lubed with a BP compatible lube.

So the advantage of the subs is you can usually buy them close by. In addition, you can use regular Smokeless bullets with some of them. Not a bad choice if somebody wants to dip his toe in the dark side and see if it is for him.

The down side is the subs usually cost more, not less, than real Black Powder. Your total costs may or may not be more once you figure in the cost of special Black Powder bullets.

I don't know about less fouling. The amount of fouling you get can vary greatly with the brand of Black Powder you use. Goex is pretty dirty stuff. Recently I have been using Schuetzen and I have never seen such a clean burning Black Powder. Any sub would be hard pressed to be cleaner burning than Schuetzen. As far as cleaning, it don't get much easier than cleaning up from real BP, as long as you use a good BP compatible bullet lube and a good water based solvent. Messy, but easy.