777 loads

[Two Rivers Marshal]

So I got some rounds loaded up and have some questions.  From my earlier post, I bought a can of 777 to load .45 colts.  From the Hodgdon site, it says max load is 35 grains volume pushing a 200 gr bullet.  How do I know the conversion between volume and weight? 

To back up a min, I started out by measuring how far inside the case the bullet would seat.  Bullet base to crimp ring = .225"  data says max compression is .100"  Started filling case so there was approx .175" left at the top.  (Didnt figure I needed max compression as it says it works best with light compression)  Upon seating the bullet, felt something new to me...... a noticeable increase in pressure was needed to seat and crimp the round.  Is this normal?  Would seem that the compressed powder would not put up that much resistance.  I used to shoot a .44 and loaded them with 22.5 grs of smokeless powder and it was a compressed load.  Didnt really notice any additional pressure needed to seat the bullet. 

1st time loading this powder so this might be normal.  Starting out, kinda looking for some advice, to make sure things are right.

As far as the weight to volume thing.  After finding what I believe to be a correct load, I dumped the powder on the scale to see what it looked like.  Pretty much averaged 26.5 grains by weight.  Not rightly sure how this compares for volume.

TRM

[Flint]

Don't compress 777 much, load to have no air space, but don't compress it.  It's 15% hotter than bp to begin with.  See the Hogdon website.

[Grapeshot]

I loaded a batch of .44WCF with 777 awhile back.  Put in 2.2cc's of 777 and compressed that load, and stuck a 200 grain HARD cast RCBS Cowboy .429 bullet on top of it.

The primers flatened out, the brass molded itself to the chamber dimensions, and I don't know what the velocity was as I don't own a chronygraph, but I managed to put ten .44 caliber craters in a steel buffalo at 35 or so feet away.

That stuff is hot.

I put 2.5 cc's of 777 in my .45 Colt cases and fired them out of my SAA Colt clone.  With the 250 grain bullet it was a force to be recconned with.  Recoil was stiff, blast and smoke was at max.  I will not use 777 in my pistol ammo again.  I keep it for shotgun.

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm starting to work up some SASS "legal" bp loads for my 45-70 by duplexing 777 under FFg Holy Black.  I can't find where this has been done before, so I'll go slow, take notes and watch pressures.  I do have a fine duplex load for 45-70 using SR4759 under FFg but it's not SASS "legal".  The 777/BP load would be legal because SASS says all bp and subs are the same.

I'll report as I go.

DD-DLoS

[Howdy Doody]

Speaking of 777, I heard from a reliable source that 777 has a new product that has been under testing
during the year. It will have about a 15% less power factor grain for grain. That would compete with other
sub powders. The reason mostly, is that 777 has some great characteristics, but most cowboy shooters
have to down size the charge and that means extra steps of adding breakfast food or whatever. I was
told that when they start marketing it, that it would be called cowboy. They will still make the same 777
also. This means you can load a full case full of powder and kiss the powder with seated bullet and the
gun won't try and jump out of you hand.
777 is already used by a lot of folks I know around my parts, due to the fact you can use smokeless lubes
and you don't have to clean your guns right away either. Some actually clean up guns the next week
when they shoot 777.
Now I am not being commercial, I shoot regular old Goex, cuz I just have to have flames out the end of
my barrels, but I will of course give the new powder a try when it comes out and that will be after the
first of the year. It is nice to have companies tailor their products for the cowboy action shooters. Sort
of like your Big Lube Bullets DD.

[Adirondack Jack]

First, the "volume to weight conversion" to get a "weight by volume" equivalent that works with the Hodgdon data is .733.

Now that was clear as mud, but let's put it this way.  If I look at the hodgdon data and it calls for 30 grains by VOLUME, and I wanna measure that in my regular smokeless type measure attached to my press, I first have to WEIGH a charge and fiddle with the measure until it tosses the charge I need.  Well hell, they already told ya to use VOLUME and not weight (the stuff being designed for front stuffers, they figure everybody is gonna use a spout with "BP grains" increments on it.  Well I ain't doin' that.  I use the factor .733 and multiply 30 grains by .733 and find that I need 21.99 grains WEIGHT of 777 to equal the VOLUME of 30 grains of BP.  Now since the stuff is a little hot, yer gonna get more whoopass outta 22 grains WEIGHT of 777 than outta 30 grains of 777, but it's a usable load.

Let's try another.  Maybe the recipe calls for 35 grains VOLUME of 777.  35 times .733 is 25.655 grains WEIGHT.  So I would EYEBALL a shot of powder that fills the case to what looks right for the bullet I'm using, then WEIGH that charge and see if it matches the recipe of (BP recipe charge grains by Volume X .733 equals 777 charge grains by WEIGHT).  If it comes out pretty durn close, I'm good to go.  Basically ya want enough 777 in the case to JUST touch the base of the bullet and MAYBE a tiny bit (1/16 or so) of compression or none at all.

(Didn't mean to make this so basic like for a school kid, but not  knowing yer level of understanding, I figure too much explanation is better'n havin' ya git hurt.)

Now, there sure is a new "cowboy" or 777 lite) in production testing right now.  SOME of TenX BPC ammo is loaded with it.  TenX ia "wringing out" the new powder for a year or so before Hodgdon puts it on store shelves alongside the original (which will still be popular with front stuffer deer hunters).  My Cowboy .45 Special is being tested by TenX with the new 777 lite, and it is just about a dead ringer for the performance of Goex.

[knucklehead]

Adirondack Jack gave you very good information.

Now let me give it to you alittle simpler. I load 777 2f in my cas guns 45lc cowboy 45 special 38 special and 12 gauge shells.
get yourself the lee dipper loading system, its only 10 bucks in the midway usa catalog.
look up black powder 2f on the card. look at the volumin measure that you want.
250 grain bullet in 45lc takes 30 grains of 2f(dont matter what brand of powder your using), which is the 2.2 lee dipper according to the loading card included with the lee dipper system.
fill up the dipper level or slightly(very slightly) above the rim, drop it on your scale to get the weight. set your powder dispencer to that weight and start loading.

you can also purchase a black powder measure that is marked 10-100 grains. you just adjust it to 30 grains and pour powder in it and rotate the funnel back in place. this will cut off extra powder and leave 30 grains by volumn in the measure. drop it into your scale and measure for weight in order to setup powder dispencer.

i use the 2.2 dipper for 45lc, 4.3 dipper for 12 gauge and the 1 dipper for 38 special.

if you want lighter recoiling loads for your 45lc pistols then i suggest you purchase some cowboy 45 special shells from Adirondack Jack. you only put about 1/2 as much powder in these shells as you will a 45lc shell.
my ruger old army with the 45lc conversion loves cowboy 45 special shells and is very accurate.

[Howdy Doody]

Ok, can't pull nothing at all over on AJ. That is where I heard it, from POTUS of Ten X, supplier to cowboy action shooters. He supplied a lot of ammo at the GFBJL this past week and some was the new 777 and some was BP loaded for night shooting and FC. I saw a lot of your brass AJ. I am not sure if it was supplied by Ten X or they were home rolled. I was on a near all BP posse and at least 4 shooters were using 45 spl brass. Let's see, a cartridge that can be loaded fully with a bullet wedged over the new powder means great smoke, reduced recoil and you don't have to jump on cleaning your guns as soon as they are shot, hmmmm, seems like a great combo there to me.
I am greedy though, what ever it takes to get more folks to shoot the BP classes the better. I am starting to see a real increase in folks coming out and shooting the smokey stuff and the grin factors are real evident.
POTUS took over from Ken alias Ten X and boy he is one heck of a great guy. I shot the night shoot with he and his 13 year old son and I could see they had some great fun. He also supplied blank 12ga shells for the opening ceremony, wax bullets for a great booth set up with steel targets that lets folks that wander in to the GFBJL try their hand at a little cowboy action shooting with a couple of pistols. It is a great thing and lot's of folks have gone on to sign up for beginning classes they have at The Cowboys with recycled 38 spl brass donated by shooters for Ten X to reload for the instructional classes. Yessir, that is just a bit of what Ten X and some of the other suppliers do for the sport.
Others that do for the sport would be Michael Bane and Tequila and their TV show Cowboys on the Outdoor channel, they along with our own Marshal Halloway let the public know what CAS is all about and hopefully get some to head for a club near where they live. It is a great show and CAS shooters enjoy it too. The GFBJL was so big this year that it will take two 1/2 hour shows to get it all on. That is amazing. There is no doubt what that show has done for cowboy action and W3G shooting.
Sorry for running on, but it might have some interest to some that are getting into it or maybe some that have been into it too. 

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I don't see how Hodgdon would wish to release a version of 777 that was less powerful. That already exists and its called Pyrodex!!!

[APP and Pinnacle are $$$. I don't see how Hodgdon needs to fight a battle they already are winning]


As far as 777 goes, I use a full scoop (4.3cc) in my Magtech brass hulls along with 1oz of #8 shot and don't worry.
I use 777 for my shotgun shells exclusively now.

[Adirondack Jack]

I don't see how Hodgdon would wish to release a version of 777 that was less powerful. That already exists and its called Pyrodex!!!

[APP and Pinnacle are $$$. I don't see how Hodgdon needs to fight a battle they already are winning]


As far as 777 goes, I use a full scoop (4.3cc) in my Magtech brass hulls along with 1oz of #8 shot and don't worry.
I use 777 for my shotgun shells exclusively now.

Hodgdon took note that their otherwise excellent 777 didn't play too well in CAS because it's a little on the hot side.  A version that duplicates GOEX in power and replaces it volume for volume is sheer genius.  Note:  Hodgdon has only ONE major rival in the Dark Side, and it isn't another sub

In the 12GA,  I use 45 grains WEIGHT of 777 and 1 1/8 ounces of shot (using ballistic products wads, 11 GA nitro card and a 1/2 inch filler, and a 10 ga Overshot card) and they aion't found a KD they won't take down.  FWIW I load exactly the same recipe in STS hulls and it works the berries on the MEC jr. press.

[Two Rivers Marshal]

Lil update for everyone....

Went out and shot off a few rounds (ok, all of em)

Squinted the eyes a bit for the first shot..... noticeable recoil, not so much the gun wanted to jump out of my hands, but enough to let ya know it was there.  Was expecting a bit more smoke.  Rekkon once this can is done, might have to change to Goex or something else to get the smoke and flames.  Believe the next reloading session, I will adjust so the powder isnt compressed, or just barely compressed. 

Bought a black powder measure. Brass and composite unit marked off in 10 grain increments.  Kinda thinking this was not the piece i needed to measure powder.  Set it to 30 grains and filled er up.  Slid the top over to use the funnel end and filled up a case.  30 grains filled maybe 2/3 or so of the case.  Would definately left a considerable air gap between the powder and bullet.  Might be I was doing something wrong. Will be looking into the dipper set and see how that goes. 

Appreciate all the info folks.  Even with the questions and times of scratchin the head, believe we are headed towards shootin the black more and more.

TRM

[Adirondack Jack]

The most smoke will be had with JUST enough 777 to touch the bullet base and absolutely no compression.  A little compression (1/16 or so) slightly increases pressure and recoil, and makes them the most accurate, but reduces smoke some.

[Two Rivers Marshal]

Thanks for the smoke update....so-to-speak.... will work on the next loads to be lighter on the compression.