BP Starter

[Two Rivers Marshal]

Evening gents,  have a few questions about getting started loading BP

I shoot .45lc in pistol and rifle.  I have been itchin' to load them with black power or substitute ( not sure whats available here yet) anywho, I have read a few things and it seems to vary on how to load em. 

The best I can gather,  measure how far in the brass the bullet will be when seated and fill the case to a tad over that mark so there isn't an air gap.  Others said to use a certain amount of power then a fiber or card wad then the bullet.  Would someone care to enlighten me a bit on this.

Next question, I am using Chey-cast bullets (200gr as the store was out of 250gr).  These look pretty much like your normal bullets with what I would call a normal size lube ring around the base.  Are these bullets ok to use with BP?  I have heard folks talk about "big lube" bullets.  Are these required when using BP?

Really would like to smoke up the place with the others, just looking for a little guidance.

Thanks,
TRM

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!  Welcome to the fun world of blindingly beautiful white smoke!

Your idea about measuring is OK, but an easier way which will also get you some compression (MOST BP loves some compression) is to fill the case with powder to about 1/8" from the top or to wherever it fills it so that you seat the bullet and you get 1/16" to 1/8" compression.  Some even go so far as 1/4", but don't do it so much that you bulge the case.

For THE BEST accuracy, yes a wad can be used.  For most normal CAS shooting and plinking, it's just an extra step and expense. 

The BigLube (tm) boolits are really good bullets for BP.  The SECRET (come closer, so I don't have to shout  ) to accurate BP shooting AND keeping a gun functioning with BP (except for a couple subs like 777 and APP) is LOTS AND LOTS of nice, soft BP friendly lube.  NOT the hard, waxy - melted-crayon lube which is FINE for using smokeyless powder and is probably what is on those CheyCast bullets.  Sorry.  For TRUE BP success, you NEED - nay, MUST HAVE plenty of lube and SOFT, nearly pure lead bullets.  Those CheyCast bullets are GREAT bullets ... for smokeyless powder.  They're generally too hard for extended BP shooting.  Now, if you have an interest in casting your own bullets, then the BigLube bullet moulds can be gotten from our pard, Dick Dastardly.  He'll chime in here, soon, I'm sure.  If you DON'T cast (roll  ) yer own; don't despair.  Look for posts by Mason Stillwell  or Springfield Slim   http://www.whyteleatherworks.com  They sell the BigLube Boolits and MAY, for a bit of extra ca$h, put some proper BP lube on 'em for ya!

These are just some suggestions to get ya started.  Yer mileage may vary!

Have Fun!!!

[Cuts Crooked]

Ok, brace yerself pard...and git ready ta do a lot of reading.

Best advise I can give ya fer gitting started is to go here http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?board=82.0 and start perusing the various posts there. There is more collective "wisdom" there than you will probably find anywhere else concerning shootin BP in ca'tridge gunz!

[Dick Dastardly]

Steel Horse & Cuts both got ya headed down the right trail.

I'd only add that you want a good black powder loading book for quick reference.  The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook works for me.

Big Lube™ bullets do take the pain and mystery out of black powder loading and shooting.  They haul so much lube that the only thing you need to do is dump in black powder and seat the lube/sized bullet.  Presto, done.

Take an empty piece of brass and measure the depth remaining inside the hull with a bullet seated to your desired depth.  That would be to the OAL your guns like to feed.  Big Lube™ bullets like the PRS-45-250 are designed to give factory spec OAL when crimped in the crimp grove.  Then, see how much of your favorite black powder it takes to fill the case about 1/8" higher then the heal of the seated bullet will be.  That way you're compressing the powder about 1/8" when you seat and crimp the bullet.

It sounds like you're already an accomplished reloader.  That means that loading Holy Black will be even easier than what you have been doing.

The real benefit to using Big Lube™ bullets comes at cleanup time.  All  that lube keeps the fouling so soft that any water based bp cleaner spritzed down the bore and a pull of the Bore Snake is all it takes to have a sparkling clean barrel.  You will find your guns much easier to clean then you have with that foul heathen fad smokeyless powder.

Welcome to the Darkside!!

DD-DLoS

[Tequila Jim]

You can use your crayon lubed bullets with APP, 777. I am not too shure about the outher
BP subs. Regards, TJ

[Wills Point Pete]

 I mostly use the Big Lube bullets myself, anymore. However, when I don't have time to cast I also use Remington swaged lead 250 grain bullets. At around $30.00 for 500 from Midway I usually buy a box whenever I have $30.00 to spare. These bullets work with smokeless as long as we keep velocity within Colt SAA range and when I want to load them with BP I just fill that slight hollowbase with my home made lube and load it over a wad.

Now there are two levels of BP loading. At CAS ranges we don't need to fool with drop tubes and compression dies, just about anything will work as long as we leave no airspace. Fill the case with BP. fill some of the case with BP and the rest with dry grits, it's all pretty good with big targets and short ranges.

The next step is hunting and long range target loading. This is a whole 'nother animal. You'll need at least a 24 inch drop tube for your powder charges, I use a slightly bent aluminum arrow shaft that got ruined when the deer ran after being hit. A compression die is nice too, although I use a home made rig consisting of a flat ended brass cylinder screwed onto a widget that hits the top of my press, I just push the end into the case and push the handle down. This works with thick .45 Colt cases, I suspect not so well with the thin .44 wcf cases. But, since I don't shoot .44 wcf that doesn't matter to me.

Now black powder doesn't seem to care how much you compress it, right up until the cases start expanding. I keep reading that we can't put 40 grains of real BP and a 250 grain bullet into a modern .45 Colt case. This is only partially true. We cannot put 40 grains and a bullet in easily, without drop tubing it a little at a time and compressing the foo out of it.

Your .45 Colt rounds will work best with full charges, The cases are so much thicker than, say the .38 wcf that lighter loads don't expand to fill the chambers and the innards of your shootin' irons get all crudded up with BP goo.  This is not a big deal with Colt style revolvers but is a pain with rifles and carbines. The trick is a 250 grain bullet and a full charge of powder. I stayed out of BP for quite some time because of the old wives tales about the .45 Colt being bad for rifles. When I finally decided to go with BP I went all crazy and turned the necks of a bunch of cases, annealed a bunch more. This was a waste of time and effort. All I had to do was a full load of powder and a heavy bullet.

[Two Rivers Marshal]

I appreciate the info folks.  Looks like i have some reading to do.  I might have to look into using the 777 to start with, mostly cause I have almost 1000 of the "crayon" lubed bullets. 

Dick, could you email me or point me to your contact info to look into getting the big lube bullets.  Have to run to the store tomorrow, and will look for that book while I'm out.

Wills Point Pete: is filling the case still ok using the 200 gr bullets since I dont have any 250's at the moment?

Looking forward to smoking up the place in the near future.

Two Rivers

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy again!

2 Rivers, go to the link I provided in my original post (or here: http://www.whyteleatherworks.com )  Slim sells these great bullets cast and lubed, and for a VERY fair price.

As to using the 200 grainers like the 250s :  YEP.  The same method works for ALL sizes.

Dick has his link to his casting moulds and stuff in that banner at the bottom of each post.  OR : http://www.biglube.com/  The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is/should be available at lots of decent gunstores, but I'd call ahead. 

As to starting with 777, yep - that'll work for ya.  Just remember what I mentioned in my first post:  777 is a more powerful powder (between 10% - 15%) than the other BPs and subs, EXCEPT for Swiss powder, which MAY not be quite as powerful as Trip 7, but is still more "energetic" than the other powders.

Have fun!

[Cincinnati Slim]

Yes Sir the .45 Colt case is an easy one to load for blackpowder or a sub.

I went out and bought a bunch of .30 grain pyrodex pellets to use in C&B guns. I quickly discovered that real fff Goex black powder worked better for me so I had a bunch of pyrodex pellets laying around. I'm using 'em up on .45 Colt loads. Drop in a pellet, seat a slug and your DONE! Not the cheapest way to go but it sure is EASY! Makes a fairly stiff, smokey load.

I also have been pretty happy using 28 Gr. (by VOLUME) of ff Triple-Seven, 0.60 card wad and 250 Gr.LRNFP cheap generic soft lead "crayon" lubed slugs. It's loud, smokey and fairly stiff recoiling . But I like that. This is a really cheap load. I pay $14 for 250 slugs, Triple-Seven is more easily found than real black powder so I wait for sale prices. Clean-up is really easy to.

Of course nothing smells like the real thing and when I find it , I stock up on black powder. The price is actually usually CHEAPER than the subs but this is negated by the need for specially lubed bullets.

So go for it ! Just remember, you want to remove all the petroleum based lube from your revolvers. it'll turn into tar when combined with black powder residue. Ballistoll really is great but smells funny, olive, peanut or other veggie lubes all work fine and actually can smell pretty good once hot...

Slim

[Wills Point Pete]

 Two Rivers, the weight of the bullet doesn't matter, except that when you drop below a certain pressure the brass case will no longer expand enough to keep from filling the inside of the gun with BP smoke. Now as you cut down on bullet weight you add powder so I don't know where the cutoff is. Nor does it matter much with handguns since all we have to do with those is take the grips off and soak the whole gun in moose milk and blow it out with compressed air. Don't have an air compresser? Used that canned air from the computer store.

Since Pards on this, and other, wires report good results with the El Paso Pete Boolit, which is about the same weight as a round ball, I suspect you should not have a problem, anyhow. Just shoot your first batch in a revolver. If the outside of the case is fairly clean, you are in business with revolvers and rifles. If the outside has a lot of black stick with just revolvers until you figure out how to get the pressure up. I don't use light bullets because my revolvers are fixed sight models and light bullets shoot low. Even 230 grain bullets shoot low for me, much less even lighter. Since I have no desire to go filing on my front sights I just stick with the heavyweights.

[Two Rivers Marshal]

Went to the store today and picked up a can of 777.  Will have to wait til the shoot tomorrow to get some empty brass ( store was out of new brass) to load up.  I couldn't find the Lyman book ya'all said, but I did find a Lyman Black Power Handbook & Loading Manual.  Looks to be some good reading and it includes a section on loading BP cartridges.  Still didnt have any 250 gr bullets yet but I need to use up the 200's anyway. 

As far as the lube in/on the guns.  I usually use regular gun oil to lube the action after cleaning.  I take it I dont want to use that if I'm going to move away from smokeless?  The barrel is usually cleaned with Hoppes until the patch comes clean and left that way, Do I need to be oiling the barrel with BP?  Never heard of using olive oil before.  Would make sense I rekkon, use the same thing on my cast iron pans. 

Appreciate the help folks.

Two Rivers