My first post! and 1858 conversions

Stophel · October 03, 2007, 07:53:18 PM

Hello, one and all! My first post here on the board.

I do not currently own any single action pistol (yes, they are pistols!), but I am really hankerin' for one. Thing is, I do NOT want a Colt-type gun. It's kinda like why I don't like Chevrolets...no good reason, I just don't. What I would REALLY like is a Smith and Wesson, but the modern "replicas" seem to be plagued with problems that I deem unacceptable.

Well, I am kind of talking myself into a "58" Remington with an R&D Cylinder, but I have questions.

The R&D cylinder has a six shot capacity. One of the beautiful things about the 58 Remington is the hammer notches on the cylinder, so that you can set the hammer down and safely carry six shots. A HUGE plus for me. The way I see it, carrying a six shot gun with only five shots in it is just...wrong. Now, the photos I have seen of the R&D cylinders show that it doesn't have these notches!!!! why on earth would they leave them off? Is there anything underneath these areas between the chambers that preclude cutting in the hammer notches? Can hammer notches be cut in? Or is it not necessary because the firing pins rebound (there ain't much room there, so I don't see how they could rebound)?

OK, now I found a photo of an R&D cylinder on the SCORRS website in an article on the revolving rifle, and this one DOES have the hammer notches. I'm confused (which is not an unusual situation for me). Can anyone straighten me out?

I also want one of the little Steel frame (finally!) pocket Remingtons...but that's another post.

Sunwapta Haze · October 03, 2007, 10:02:16 PM

Well Stophel, I'm somewhat biased and love my Remmies. I have a brace of '75s and '58s (C&B only). Yes they have some issues but I don't believe they are much more troublesome than any other single action revolvers. There are those out there that swear Rugers are indestructible but I have seen more than one cowboy having issues with them as well. I hear tell that top competitors such as Evil Roy and Holy Terror wear out their Rugers in about a year from the amount of practicing that they do.

The weak hand spring in the 75s is a common one. I haven't had any issues with the hand spring in the 58s yet. I have also had problems with the bolt cam on the hammer wearing and affecting the bolt timing. I fixed this by installing replaceable colt cams.

Bottom line - get what ever pistol you want but be prepared for some issues if you are going to be using it a lot.

Marshal Will Wingam · October 03, 2007, 11:46:13 PM

Regarding the notches on the R&D conversion cylinders, I have a couple old ones with the notches and a couple new ones without the notches. OK, the old ones have notches, but they really don't work well. The hammer doesn't drop into the notches so Kenny at R&D just doesn't put them on anymore. You really don't want a loaded chamber under the hammer unless you're preparing to pull the trigger. It's just the way it was done back then and it works fine, now. Just buy a second cylinder and, with a little practice, you can reload another full cylinder in 12 seconds or so. I have them as my main match pistols. They're accurate and dependable. Like anything, you can wear them out with a lot of use so don't feel bad if someday you need to replace something. Since the potential for needing some work someday is present with anything you get, go for exactly what you like and be done with it. If you like the S&W designs, look at the Beretta Laramie. http://www.beretta.com/index.aspx?m=74&idc=2&ids=58 It's a copy of the Smith & Wesson Model 3 with adjustable sights. The fit and finish is as good as anything and certainly nicer than any of the other Smith clones.

Stophel · October 04, 2007, 10:11:45 AM

Thanks.

Years ago (about 10 or 12) I purchased for myself an "1858 Remington" (Pietta) from Cabelas for the princely sum of $99.95. I actually found the gun to be well made, and smooth, but for me it had one serious flaw...it utilized those hideous little copper things which were constantly falling off the nipples and jamming up the gun. I kept it for a while, but then sold it. Being the 18th century flintlock man that I am, I have an inherent disdain for percussed caps to begin with. I must have cartridges.

I believe I am going to go ahead and order up a new Pietta, and get the conversion cylinder. I have the feeling I'm going to end up cutting down the barrel a bit too.... I'm going to try cutting a notch for the hammer in the cylinder backing plate (You only really need one, I guess) and see how well it does. I build 18th century flintlock rifles, and have done a fair amount of modern gun work, so such an operation would be no difficulty. I will definitely keep you all posted.

Deadeye Don · October 04, 2007, 11:35:10 AM

I agree with Will. DO NOT rely upon any notches in the cylinder to carry 6. You are asking for an accident to happen. If you plan to shoot SASS or NCOWS having the hammer on a notch or a live round would be enough to get you a DQ and yelled at to boot!!!

Stophel · October 04, 2007, 12:00:25 PM

Well, I just dropped the hammer on the 58. Ordered one just now.

As to the safety notches, this is something that always really freaked me out. Even years ago, when I had my first gun (in percussion), I would read where the very notion of actually using the notches on the cylinder brought terror to the hearts of men...why, surely you'll blow your leg off. Frankly, it never made sense to me. The one I had was secure enough in the notch. It weren't gonna slip out. We'll see how it does when I get it.

As to competitive shooting...this may make me unpopular, but I am not interested in it. I am not very competitive (combative, yes, competitive, no!

)

Marshal Will Wingam · October 04, 2007, 12:25:42 PM

Be sure to post pics of your pistol when you get it. I'm particularly interested to see how the notch will work out. You could set up a jig and do six notches as well as one, if you had a mill to use for it. There is one alignment pin in the conversion cylinder and one hole in the cylinder cap. I've also been tempted to drill 5 more holes in the cap for convenience of loading. Once set up you simply drill, rotate 60° and drill again untill all are done.

Stophel · October 04, 2007, 01:17:21 PM

I'm going to have to wait a while before getting the cylinder. I'll probably get it from Brownell's, as I think I can get it just a tad cheaper there than elsewhere....every penny counts.

As to the notches, I would sure like to put them in. On the percussion cylinder, they're pretty deep..but then, there's a LOT of metal there to put notches into. On the little conversion cylinder plate, there may or may not be enough meat there to put a deep enough notch into, hence the discontinuation of the notches. I'll see what I can or can't do when I get it. The notch(es) could be carefully cut in with a Dremel tool, or just filed in if I can get at it from the proper angle, but I think the boss where the ratchet notches are will be in the way.

Conversion cylinder notwithstanding, I think I'll give shooting percussion one more try. At least I'll be able to do something with the gun until I get the new cylinder. I ordered some balls and wads, and I have PLENTY of black powder already. I almost ordered some caps, but HOLY COW....unless you are a serious percussion shooter/CF reloader it is definitely not economical to order caps or primers anymore! I'll go to the local gunshop to pick up a couple tins of caps!

Hey, do you all use 2f or 3f? I have both.

Silver Creek Slim · October 04, 2007, 05:49:01 PM

I use FFFg in pistols most of the time, but FFg will work also.

Quote from: Stophel on October 04, 2007, 12:00:25 PM
As to competitive shooting...this may make me unpopular, but I am not interested in it. I am not very competitive (combative, yes, competitive, no! )

I am not competitive either, but I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally enjoy CAS. I guess I am a bit competitive. I try to get more BP in my shells than the next guy.

Slim

Deadeye Don · October 05, 2007, 06:43:13 AM

As to competitive shooting...this may make me unpopular, but I am not interested in it. I am not very competitive (combative, yes, competitive, no! )

I think you might be missing the point of most of us involved in CAS. Most of us are in it for the fun of shooting old west guns along with friends we have met along the way. You should check into NCOWS if you havent already. I think our group would be to your liking. Regards. Deadeye.

Old Baldy · October 06, 2007, 07:27:45 AM

Howdy Stophel,
You might find that R&D cylinder about $10.00 cheaper at MidwayUSA:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=292272&t=11082005

OB

Stophel · October 06, 2007, 10:39:56 AM

I can get one from Brownell's for like $230-something I think. I saw the other day where someone had them for $225...I don't remember who it was though...

Old Baldy · October 06, 2007, 11:11:59 AM

I thought Brownell's was more around $271. That is why I mentioned MidwayUSA.

The Avocado Kid · October 06, 2007, 06:32:42 PM

Quote from: Stophel on October 04, 2007, 10:11:45 AM
Thanks.

Years ago (about 10 or 12) I purchased for myself an "1858 Remington" (Pietta) from Cabelas for the princely sum of $99.95. I actually found the gun to be well made, and smooth, but for me it had one serious flaw...it utilized those hideous little copper things which were constantly falling off the nipples and jamming up the gun. I kept it for a while, but then sold it. Being the 18th century flintlock man that I am, I have an inherent disdain for percussed caps to begin with. I must have cartridges.

I believe I am going to go ahead and order up a new Pietta, and get the conversion cylinder. I have the feeling I'm going to end up cutting down the barrel a bit too.... I'm going to try cutting a notch for the hammer in the cylinder backing plate (You only really need one, I guess) and see how well it does. I build 18th century flintlock rifles, and have done a fair amount of modern gun work, so such an operation would be no difficulty. I will definitely keep you all posted.

Well...now you will pay the princely sum of $199.99 at Cabela's....it's still a great deal IMHO....The R&D cylinder works great in the Remy revolver.... I really like mine....check out Midway.com or Taylors for the R&D cylinders.

Tuolumne Lawman · October 09, 2007, 05:00:24 AM

A little late, but my two cents:

I have used both R&D and Kirst. Both are excellent. The R&D has the advantage of holding 6 rounds. The Kirst holds five plus a "safety chamber (undersized) to make it SASS legal. I prefer the Kirst, as the first conversions in 1869 came in .46 Rimfire, and were five shot. I duplicate the .46 with .45 Schofields and black powder. I currently use the Kirst.