is a 1895 considered a "service rifle"?

[Captain Lee Bishop]

At a gun show over the weekend, I saw a Browning M1895 in .30-06. After some research over the internet on this (I had never heard that Browning had ever made these before), I found that this is by far the most common cartridge. Even though the guy at the show had what I know now was a really good price on the 1895, I balked at buying it because I knew I couldn't use it in any SASS-rules shoots. I do wonder if it would be okay to shoot in a GAF match, because it's not technically a "service rifle." I want a 95 because several of the Rough Rider officers bought them for the trip to Cuba, although chambered for the Krag round. So is a 95 okay for GAF and if so, must it be chambered for a Krag? I won't waste my time and money on any "western" rifle that I can't use in competition.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I don't have the answer to your question...but. 

Did you know that the Russians bought almost a quarter of a million 1895s in 7.62 Moisin Nagant.  I'd love to find out where they are now!

In Canada the 1895 carbine in .303 Brit was a favorite of militia cavalry units, on a private purchase basis.

[Mustang Gregg]

Yup, not for use in SASS long range (no mag tube).  I don't like the rule, but oh, well!

BTW:  I just marched in the GAF Color Guard at the SASS Convention with a M-1895 carbine in .30 Gov't.  I was in Spanish American War USV uniform.
The other rifleman was totin' an Sharps (in Civil War uniform, I recollect).

It is a known fact that LtCol Roosevelt carried one in Cuba and gave it to an enlisted man (don't recall his name).

I think you can use the M-1895 in GAF Service Rifle category.  We talked about it before the NE Muster/Match, but I didn't get to go & shoot.

I would wager that is might even be legal for ncows sidematches.  Check before you buy.

MG

[Dr. Bob]

On page 2 there is a thread on the GAF Battle Rifle regs.  I would seem that the Win. 95 in 30 Govt. [Krag] is in but 30.06 isn't.  Check with Sgt. Drydock to be sure.  He is the world's foremost AUTHORITY!

[Dr. Bob]

Hi,

Here is a 30 US Winchester 95 for sale, one of the ones listed in the Battle Rifle list!

     http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8381516

Good luck!

[St. George]

In his book - 'The Rough Riders' - Roosevelt mentions of his Officers that:

"A few carried their favorite Winchesters using, of course, the New Model, which took the Government cartridge."

There are no known accounts of these rifles used during the Cuban Campaign.

He also mentions in the above reference that  he gave his personal Winchester to Trooper Robert D. Wrenn, of A Troop,  while still in Tampa, as:

"Bob Wrenn had joined us very late, and we could not get him a Krag carbine, so I had given him my Winchester, which carried the government (.30-40) cartridge, and when he was mustered out he carried it home in triumph, to the envy of his fellows, who themselves had to surrender their beloved rifles."

The serial number of TR's Winchester is 7588, and is the only 'known' Winchester Model 1895 to see Cuba.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Delmonico]

Yup, not for use in SASS long range (no mag tube).  I don't like the rule, but oh, well!

Well that seems fair, otherwise the guys that owned an 1895 Savage in 303 Savage or an 1899 in 303, 38-55 or 30 WCF could just own the class.

[Drydock]

Sorry, the ice storm knocked me off line for a few days.

The M1895 is an acceptable service rifle, with at least one documented use in combat in Cuba. (Noted above) IF in military carbine/musket  configuration, in a proper caliber.  Note that case by case exemptions can be made for caliber.  As .30 US M1895s can be expensive/hard to come by, the .30-06 version is acceptable, given that it is loaded to proper spec.  (See Class requirements)

The US Goverment contracted for 10,000 M1895s in May of 1898, but the war ended before any could be issued, and it is not certain if the full order was produced.  For GAF purposes it is considered a substitute standard for the SAW period.  It would be shot in the smokeless Milspec Repeater class.

[Mustang Gregg]

Sgt Drydock:

Acceptable service rifle for GAF?   HOOOOO-RAHHHHHHHH!!!!!
That is great news, for sure.  I got one of the new Winchesters in .30 US caliber. 
Only used once for the SASS Convention Color Guard so far.  It needs some limberin' up!!!!   

MG

[St. George]

Actually - that Contract was for Muskets...

Here's what's in 'The Winchester Book' - by Madis - and long considered the 'bible' for Winchester folks:

From Page 481.

"Winchester had great difficulty in getting adoption of the Model 95 by the Army. 

Upon the recommendation of General Miles, Commander of the Army, an order of 10,000 muskets was placed with Winchester in May of 1898. 

The Ordnance Corps was having difficulty in repairs and maintenence of the large variety of arms already in use by the armed forces at that time:  the demand for arms and ammunition was heavy due to the demands of the Spanish-American War.

When the component parts and muskets had been inspected by the Army inspectors at the Winchester factory, a large number had been rejected for unsubstantial reasons. 

After some discussion, the 10,000 muskets passed inspection. 

In 1899, one hundred of the muskets were issued in the Philippines, but the Ordnance Board there gave an unfavorable report, and the one hundred muskets were returned to the United States and were sold to a Boston arms dealer.

The remaining 9,900 muskets were sold to a New York dealer who shipped them to Cuba in 1906.

Arms which were a part of the U.S. musket contract have the letters 'U.S." on top of the receiver at the juncture of the barrel and receiver. 

Those arms which did not pass the Ordnance inspection will have the inspector's initials 'K.S.M.' in a number of places on the gun.

Various parts which had not passed the final inspection but which had inspector's initials and which were serviceable were used for some sporting models.

Calibers 30 Army and 303 British were offered for standard muskets."

***

Flayderman states in his 'Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms' - 8th Edition - page 274.

"U.S. Army Model; 28" barrel, 30-40 cal; fullstock with handguard.

Large 'US' top of receiver with various inspector markings.

Ordnance Dept. purchased 10,000 1989-99 to fill war needs.

All rejected for reasons unknown;  later accepted too late for war use.

100 field-tested late 1899 in Philippines.

9,900 in storage sold 1906 on commercial market.

Believed most to Cuba and Central America.

Specimens very scarce; most show hard use."

That being said - the only documented Model 1895 used in Cuba was Roosevelt's commercially-purchased Winchester that was loaned to Bob Wrenn.


Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Drydock]

Quite true, I had indeed forgotten that that the contract was for the musket version.  However, both musket and carbine are acceptable for GAF Milspec Repeater.