Sharps - Bad shooter or bad rifle?

[Flinch Morningwood]

I have recently begun shooting a second hand IAB Sharps (approximately 5 -7 years old) at two hundred yards in an attempt to work up an accurate load...and am having trouble keeping it on the paper.

The details:

- DD/PRS 45-70 390 bullet made with 30-1 mix and beeswax/crisco/soywax lube, sized to .459, crimped
- Pre-fired, neck formed remington brass with CCI large rifle primers
- 62 grains Goex FF droptubed with .175 compression and a .030 veg wad
- High quaility vernier rear sight with lyman globe front site

I occasionaly get a 8" group but am usually lucky to keep it on the paper at 200 yds...I didn't expect this as I had nice groups at 100 yds.  I am a decent, experienced shooter but not in the Quigley catagory...

Now, I tried to "slug" the barrel by gently tapping a .495 pure lead round ball in the muzzle end...and, while it did measure out at .459, the were spots in the barrel where it slide along very easily and others where it was very tight.

My question is - Do I just need more practice/a better load or is the weapon boogered?  I was assuming it was me until the barrel slugging...the fact the diameter didn't seem consistent has raised the question of the bore's role in this.

Any help or comments are appreciated!

Thanks!

[Four-Eyed Buck]

You might want to try some 405's at that distance...............Buck

[Delmonico]

My sugestion with any gun that has an accuracy problem, no matter if it's a modern high power, pistol or whatever, if you are not sure if it is you or the gun, is to find someone you are pretty sure is good and have them have a run it it first. 

[Pitspitr]

I have a Pedersoli Sharps that shot pretty good at 100 yds or less. At 200 or more "it" would'nt hit the broad side of a barn. I put a RHO scope on it and found out the problem was my eyes.

Not suggesting this is your problem, just relating my expirience

[James Hunt]

Agree with four eyed buck - I'd try a heavier bullet and would also swap lubes. Your lube sounds good but I'd switch anyway, try the commercial lube SPG. Buy one tube and smear it on to see what happens. Is fouling excessive? Are you getting nice star lube mark at end of barrel? Two more things, try magnum primers and different brass - what the heck. Do the changes one at a time so you can figure it out. This stuff defies reason at times. Took me a year to figure out my .45 2 7/8 and now it is a tack driver.

After those quick alterations I'd start looking at the gun. But with black powder I'd start with the cartridge.

[Hell-Er High Water]

Here are some things to try that I have found useful in working up loads for my 45-70 target rifle.

1.  Load up a dummy round with the bullet just started in the case and keep seating a little deeper and deeper until it will just chamber.  At this point it will just be touching the rifling.  Bullets just touching the rifling or a tad shy will sometimes produce the best accuracy.  If you are using these for match shooting, exposed grease grooves do not pose a problem if you keep your ammo in a protected box and not let let dirt and grit get onto and into the grease.

2.  In a single shot rifle crimping is not necessary to hold the bullet in the case as is needed with cartridges in a magazine tube.

3.  Are you compressing your powder charge when seating the bullet or are you using a seperate compression die to compress the powder and over powder wad?  The 30:1 alloy that you are using is fairly soft and you may be deforming the bullet if you are using it to compress the powder charge.  0.175" is quite a bit of compression.  0.060"-0.075" is a more normal value.  I also use a 520 grain bullet, Lyman 457125, cast from 20:1 alloy and lubed with SPG lube.

4.  There is a lot of debate on which primers to use with black powder, but I have had the best luck with Federal large rifle magnum primers.

5.  Regarding wads.  Sometimes the wad will stick to the bottom of a lubed bullet.  If it sticks sometimes for all or part of it's flight to the target and sometimes falls off the bullet base right after it exist the muzzle, this will affect the bullet's flight and accuracy.  I load a second wad cut from newspaper between the over powder wad and the bullet base.  This wad has almost no weight and if it sticks or falls off it doesn't seem to affect accuracy.

6.  Are you using a blow tube between shots.  Two or three breaths, or more depending on the weather, keeps the fouling soft and consistent from shot to shot.

These are just some of the things that I have done over the years to produce accurate match loads that have been used out to 600 years with good results.

If you need any more specifics just PM me and we can discuss this via eMail.

HHW

[MONGO-AZ]

I have an IAB Sharps, and I second the motions  - the heavier bulltets fly better to longer yards - 405 or even 500gr - with the barrel slugging you describe - might even want to try a paper-patch on a 405-500gr bullet - if you ever want to get into that. Anything out past 100yrds becomes an art in shooting. And a little trial and error

[Dusty Morningwood]

My IAB Sharps was built sometime before 1985 when I bought it, let's say early 80s.  I was getting lousy accuracy until I switched to a 520 gr RN bullet, lubed with SPG, over a milk carton wad, over a full case of FFG compressed 1/8"  I have a notebook with numerous targets shot from the 100 yard bench with buckhorn rear and fixed post globe front sight.  The largest of these 10 shot groups measured a circular 3.5"  Just wish that rifle had a shotgun butt instead of that steel crescent!    Ouch.

[Flinch Morningwood]

I know what you mean about the butt shape...I built a recoil pad that incorporates several layers of leather, glued together then carved to fill in the crescent before putting a foam pad on and covering with leather.

I am working up a couple loads now that incorporate the great suggestions I have received, including:

- Using a 535 gr lyman postell bullet
- Figuring out how long the entire round needs to have correct headspace
- putting a newsprint wad over the veg wad
- making sure all the components are the sames weight
- lowering powder compression to .100"
- switching to a Federal Magnum match primer

I won't be out to the range for a couple weeks but I'll report how it goes...don't be shy about keeping the advice coming...it's all GOOD!

Thanks!

[Montana Slim]

I suggest measuring the "twist" (rate of rifling) of your barrel....my Pedersoli has 1 turn in 18 inches of lenght (1-18). Fast twist, such as this will give better accuracy with 500 grain pills....I doubt it would group well with 390's.

Easy to measure, just use a tight fitting jag / patch and mark the distance (length) of one full rotation (mark with tape, pen, etc.

I'll bet your rifle shoots much better with them heavy pills.

Slim

[Delmonico]

My Pedersoli with a 1-18 twist does just fine out to 300 yards with the Lyman 457122 330 HP, it is generally when you get out at a distance beyond is where the heavy ones do better.  As long as your bullet does not strip in the rifling overstablization is not a big problem. 

I have a funny feeling that the lengthed chamber on this rifle is what a majority of the rifle problems are.

[Flinch Morningwood]

Thanks for the help!  Through the help of some of the folks on this board, I managed to discover that, as the "third hand owner," I did not know the chamber was cut for 45-100 (2.6)...I have ordered some of those cases and will let you know how it goes.

[Rap Scallion]

   Simple advice already put out there by several other shooters!

When ever you are having problems with a gun, try some other ammo......In this case get some commercial 45-70 and see what happens.......Secondly give the gun to your Bro-In-Law, or buddy to shoot for a while, and ask them how they found it to shoot!

Just a process of diagnosis, try to eliminate the ammo as the culprit, then try the rifle........IF it still points to the gun to be at fault, don't consider it for the Gun Show or a tomato stake......Could be something like a damaged muzzle crown, a simple cut and recrown could take care of!  Many a "Bad" gun has been sold off or given away, when there really was very little wrong with it!

Do some investigative work before you condem the weapon or the shooter!