3F or 2F in 45-70 ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

Since equal volumes of 3f will create more pressure than 2F...the question I have is...

Does anyone use a 3f , 70grain charge for the .405bullet in 45-70 ?

BP cartridge is a new venture,,,and I'm wishing solid information on my question.


Thank you.

Marshal Deadwood

[Pitspitr]

I have, but I've started using Goex CTG and like it better.

[Delmonico]

I have, but I've started using Goex CTG and like it better.

That's what I started using in 1996 and have not seen a reason to change, with my lube I have no fouling problems and I get all the accuracy I can expect.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have crammed as much as 75 grains of 3F under the Lyman 457193 420gr flat nose bullet.  The rifle is my Gemmerized Pedersoli Sharps '74.  It has a long throat and was loaded with close to two exposed lube grooves.  Whomps outta there pretty good, and I only did it to see if it was usable for hunting.  IT SURE IS!  My regular loads are CTG or ocassionally 2F.

22 Sep 07;  My regular load for the Pedersoli Sharps is;
Lyman 457193  wheel wt.
SPG applied by hand.  NOT sized
W-W cases
CCI 250 primers
GOEX Cartridge,  67 grains drop tubed moderately compressed
card wad cut from heavy cereal Family Pack
OAL 2.72 inches (Only 1 groove exposed)

Loads must be tailored to YOUR rifle.  1. OAL  2. Powder/load  &  compression  3. wad specifics  4. primer choice  This is just what I ended up with.

[Delmonico]

The only thing I would worry about would be pehaps and original trapdoor or one of the other weaker of the BP actions, like maybe a pre Marlin Ballard or such.  My next project is to size a Lyman 330 HP to 0.451 and paper patch it up so ther are no lube grooves to deal with.  Then it will be seated out long and as much 3F crammed in as possible.  I can get 75 gts of Goex CTG with a compression die and in a Remington case to boot.  Clocks 1375 fps with the grease grooves covered.

[Otter]

MD,

I started out using 70 gr 2f Elephant or Goex CTG under the Lyman 457193 (405 gr FN), then went to 68 gr Goex CTG under the Lyman 457125 (500 gr RN). Now use Goex GTG for all my 45-70 loads for my Roller and Sharps. From what I can determine, CTG is basically 2f that has been "socked" or coated somewhat differently from regular 2f to eliminate some of the dust/fines. Used some 3f one time just as an experiment and didn't like the way it treated my shoulder . . . no other reason . . .

[Marshal Deadwood]

Thank you gents, I appreciate it very much.

Marshal Deadwood

[James Hunt]

The .45-70 is a dandy cartridge that is just about impossible to screw up. Someone with more knowledge will weigh in on this but I believe (sorry I have forgot the references, Wolfe maybe) that 2f is more similar to the grain size found in period military cartridges. I have had good luck using Goex 2f in this cartridge with various bullet weights. I use 1f Goex in my .45 2 7/8 by the way and experience somewhat less fouling (the opposite of what you would think), but I stole the idea from long range shooters and it seems to work. The .45 2 7/8 takes some effort to get right by the way. Unless you are hanging with the 1000 yd crowd, the .45 70 or .50 70 (if you are a hunter) is the way to go in my experience. But then if it is black powder - it is all pretty darn cool.

Regards, Jim

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Marshal Deadwood, I believe you and I are in the same boat, or maybe similar ones.  I recently got a Pedersoli 45-70 RB, and I'm having a great time with it.  I used to have an H&R 38-55, but that was like a plinking gun compared to this one.  I've been experimenting around with loads and today I went down to our CAS range and shot a few. 

I'm using 3F because I have several pounds for my 1858 Rem., etc.  For bullets I'm using Paul Jones Creedmores, 535 gr.  I also have commercial rounds by Goex and the Ammo Depot with 405 gr bullets and whatever powder they use.

Our range only has 100 and 200 yd targets.  I never missed the 100's, no matter what I was shooting.  Those PJ's rattled the metal targets pretty good.  100 yds is way below the potential of this rifle.  It took me a while at 200 yds to sight in the creedmore long range sight that came with the rifle (it's Pedersoli's cheapest, and I have to move it back and forth to get it to the right angle for my eye, plus the windage is adjusted by loosening the eye cup and sliding it sideways, no markings).  By the time it was dead-on, my shoulder was thoroughly beaten by the overkill loads I created.

All my shells were packed with 65 gr 3F.  I compressed the powder and hand seated the bullets to just above the lube grooves.  I think it was too much compression for the Swiss--it shot worst.  The Schuetzen was better, much more consistent.  The commercial rounds shot the best, at least I think so.  It's hard to tell when you're not shooting paper targets.

With metal targets at 200 yds or less, it probably doesn't make much difference which powder you use --1F to 3F-- because it isn't enough distance to begin to see the characteristics or differences, and there's no way to see groups.  I also believe that a 535 gr bullet for a 200 yd shot is like using a magnum to shoot flies; it's a lot of fun but the fly doesn't know the difference. 
My next loads will be with 405 gr bullets.

[Pitspitr]

Since equal volumes of 3f will create more pressure than 2F

I'm not sure it will in this case, since getting 70 gr into even a winchester case requires compressing it into a more or less solid pellet.

[MLR]

Yellowhammer:

  Get yerself a Past recoil protector. It straps on your shoulder and works quite well.

  Michael

[Marshal Deadwood]

Yellowhammer,  I like the RB's,,,they kinda grow on ya don't they ?

Appreciate your 'field report',,,good base info to share...a good starting point.

*so many rifles, so little wampum....

MD

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Thanks, Michael.  I went to the range yesterday and came back with a blue shoulder.     Yer right, MD, I love shooting my RB. 

I replaced the cheap sight with a better Pedersoli sight and it made a huge difference.  I'm still shooting the PJ Creedmores, but I'm down to 62g powder, compressed enough to get the grease grooves into the case.  Seems to work pretty well.  Tomorrow I'll probably go to the state range and shoot some paper to see how these group (or don't).

JD

[Delmonico]

One mistake many make with these rifles or any rifle for that matter is to always seem to want to try to makr the danged bullet go as fast as they can.  This does not often give the best accuracy, many with the idea of long range in mind think this is the way to go.  The best thing to really do is to do some research before you even buy any bullets or a bullet mould.  A bullet with a better ballastic coeffient will in most cases do far better downrange than one with less of a BC even at a lower starting velocity. 

Figuring these differances is not that hard, many loading manuals have charts one can use, some will give you some very close figures, some require a knowledge of basic algerbra and using a calculator will make it go faster.  There are also charts that exsist where by using sectional density and the closest point form one can figure BC fairly close although most mould makers should be able to provide that.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

One mistake many make with these rifles or any rifle for that matter is to always seem to want to try to makr the danged bullet go as fast as they can.  This does not often give the best accuracy, many with the idea of long range in mind think this is the way to go.  The best thing to really do is to do some research before you even buy any bullets or a bullet mould... 

That's so true, Del.  I have quite a few 38-55 bullets, and now 45-70's, that I can't use because I bought before I knew what I was doing. (I keep 'em around as an excuse for buying more rifles).

My foundation or basic knowledge of long range isn't developed enough to start calculating BC, but I have to say:  I was following your post just fine until you said "algebra," and I immediately got a horrific flashback of a hot southern classroom ruled by an ancient crone who regularly tortured me with the mathematic arts. 

[Delmonico]

Oh me too, but about 15 years ago I ended up by the disability folks being shoved back into the local 2 year collage in there process of trying to make a useful human being out of an injured worker.  Took some pysics, chemistry and basic math classes from some decent teachers and I gained a lot of useful knowledge.  The Voc Rehab folks gave up on me and without their help I found a job I can do that is so fun I enjoy going to work.

Basic math, physics and chemistry sure helps understand this stuff.  Learned more math in on class than I did in all the classes the first time.  Either better teachers or better additude on my part, or most likely both.  Oh and I had nothing to do with the nervous break down Mis Karr had in class when I was in the 7th grade, the class the perriod before me got the blame.

Every kids dream, a math teacher melt down.