CH-4D Die Set for Taylor's Spencer 56-50?

Two Flints · August 28, 2007, 05:10:22 AM

Hello SSS,

Since there seems to be some problems with the Lyman Die set for the Spencer 56-50 and the problem seems to be with Starline Brass more than the die set itself, has anyone had any experience with the CH-4D Taylor's Spencer 56-50 die set? Their web site is at this link: http://www.ch4d.com/
Just wondering if the Ch-4D Spencer Taylor's 56-50 die set and will work OK with 50-70 cases in the Taylor's (Armi-Sport) Spencer.

This section is from their on-line catalog.

The owner of CH-4D Tool & Die, Dave Davidson, Emailed this photo taken of him while hunting in Tanzania. The revolver used is a S&W 500, I think that is the correct model #.

Thanks,

Two Flints

Grizzle Bear · August 28, 2007, 07:44:53 AM

I have the CH-4d dies, they work fine. Gives a good crimp, which I believe is the biggest problem with the Lyman dies.

Grizzle Bear

major · August 28, 2007, 07:59:18 AM

TF
I thought that cut down 50-70 brass would not work it the Armisport Spencers.
Terry

Two Flints · August 28, 2007, 08:11:23 AM

Grizzle Bear,

Do you use the Ch-4D die set with the Taylor Spencer?, or an original Spencer?, and what brass do you use? Which Ch-4D die set are you using? I'd appreciate the additional information.

Thanks,

Two Flints

Grizzle Bear · August 28, 2007, 10:18:20 AM

Two Flint;

Using a Taylor's Spencer and Starline brass. I did have to anneal the brass.

The dies I bought many years ago, through Rapine I think, in anticipation of a Fletcher-Bidwell Spencer.
So I suppose they were actually made for a conversion breech block?

GB

Gimpy Gus · August 28, 2007, 10:32:48 AM

Two Flints, Same as Grizzle Bear! GG

Appalachian Ed · August 28, 2007, 10:36:06 AM

I us 4D dies, I cut down Bertram 50-70, and shoot a Romano. I full length size, no expander, and no crimp. I shoot a .512 300 grain bullet cast VERY hard on top of 42 grains Goex FFF dropped througha 32 inch tube.

Two Flints · August 28, 2007, 10:46:51 AM

Grizzle Bear,

Thanks for responding

Do you know off-hand what OAL works best in your Taylor's Spencer using Starline Brass and the 4CH-4D die set? How about the specs on the bullet you cast...diameter and weight, if possible, please? What do you do to anneal the brass? Could you explain your technique?

Thanks for the information,

Two Flints

Grizzle Bear · August 28, 2007, 12:22:43 PM

Hmmmm.....

Don't recall the OAL, will have to look in my book when I get home.

Bullet is the Rapine 350-T, pan lubed and shot as cast. Weighs 365 grains?

To anneal the brass, I used a propane torch. Pick up a case with a pair of forceps, by the base.
Hold just the case mouth up to the flame until it just starts to glow red, then drop in a bucket of water.

Before annealing, I couldn't get a good crimp.

GB

Fox Creek Kid · August 28, 2007, 05:09:10 PM

I've had CH4D dies since January of 2004 and I only had to grind down the stem of the belling die as it was going too deep and expanding the base of the case. After shortening it works great.

Crazeyiven · August 28, 2007, 07:01:55 PM

I sent CH an e-mail after Appalacian Ed made note of them in the other thread. I made reference to the content of the other link and gave them a link to the thread.

Dave Davidson sent a VERY quick response:

"Our dies work with the Starline brass so long as you don't try to seat the bullet more than about 3/16" deep. There is a problem with the ID of the brass tapering in that cannot be corrected with a loading die. It could be corrected by reaming the inside of the case but I have not encountered anyone willing to go to that bother."

Not sure how reaming the inside of the the case would help bullet grip, but, then again, I do not mfg dies or brass!

Hope this helps.

David

French Jack · August 29, 2007, 05:48:12 AM

The real problem with Starline brass for the 56-50 Taylor's is as stated by Dave Davidson. The case walls are much thicker at the base than at the case mouth, quite an abrupt taper. When the expander is run in, it expands the case more proportionately than expected, thus lessening the case grip on the bullet more as the bullet is seated deeper. This can be overcome somewhat by a heavier crimp, but not entirely. The only permanent solution is either of two courses: Inside ream the cases to remove some of the taper, or taper the expander ball to eliminate some of the excessive expansion. A more practical solution is to refrain from expanding the cases as much as possible and use bullets as cast if the diameter of the bases approach .515. -- another trick which I have not fully explored is to run the loaded round back through the sizing die ( with decapper stem removed ) just far enough to resize the case mouth where it covers the bullet.

Since I elect to full resize cases, expand only enough to start the bullet, ( with modified expander button ) I don't have a problem, using bullets as cast and pan lubed. My crimp die is short enough to produce a good crimp, and I have not found a need to anneal my brass.

It appears that many of us have found different ways to address the quirks loading this cartridge, so I am beginning to wonder if the chambers on many of these guns do not vary widely.

DJ · August 29, 2007, 11:41:47 AM

Quote from: French Jack on August 29, 2007, 05:48:12 AM
-- another trick which I have not fully explored is to run the loaded round back through the sizing die ( with decapper stem removed ) just far enough to resize the case mouth where it covers the bullet.

You may be able to get some benefit from resizing the loaded round slightly (with the die backed off a few turns), but if you resize a loaded round too much, you may find the bullets getting even looser or actually falling out. This happens if the die squeezes both the bullet and the case neck too much--the bullet will remain at the smaller (squeezed down) size, but the brass case will spring back slightly when it is withdrawn from the sizing die.

French Jack · August 29, 2007, 08:30:49 PM

DJ-- I know what you refer to. However, try it with paper patched bullets, it does quite well as the paper takes up the compression.

mtmarfield · August 29, 2007, 08:57:17 PM

Greetings!

I use my CH-4D 56-50CF Die Set for both Romano and ArmiSport. Being that I'm a fan of "death-grip" neck tension, I hit the case mouth with the deburring tool, and then I'll run the expander just far enough to slightly flare it; I will not run it down to the expander shoulder on the expander ball. After the powder has been dropped, I'll carefully hand-start the bullet base into the case mouth, slightly twisting, and making sure that the bullet is as straight as possible. Then, slowly into the seating die... There are NO loose bullets!

Be Well!

M.T.Marfield
8-29-07

El Oso · August 30, 2007, 05:03:57 PM

Howdy, I had a couple of querries about the 56/50. The dies seem to have a few bugs which is not that bad but where do you find some load data? I would like too know if ya'll had much success hunting with them? El Oso

El Oso,

Check this out!
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,8470.0.html
and
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,5062.0.html

Appalachian Ed · August 30, 2007, 06:48:36 PM

Im with M.T. I dont even own the expander die. I decap, then primer, powder seat. My .512 sized bullets seat tight, no shaving, and the compressed BP is under.

French Jack · August 30, 2007, 07:09:31 PM

Oso-- I have not tried any loads with smokeless powder. I am well pleased with 34 gr. FFG under a Lyman 515139 bullet. I have good accuracy and plenty of snuff, so would not be hesitant about deer hunting with it. I am positive any deer presenting a good target at 150 yards or closer is a prime candidate for the meat pole. Black bear or boar would also be candidates.