First Attempt at loading 56-50 Cartridges

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

Finally finished my loading area, set up my Lee Classic Turret Press, had my 56-50 Starline brass and 56-50 bullets on my table and was ready to load...but, since it was my first time loading, I decided to go slow and make a few dummy rounds, no powder or primer...just to get the feel for what I was doing. 

I was using my Lyman Spencer 56-50 3 die set.  I even removed the turret bar from my Lee Classic Turret Press thus converting it into a single stage press.  I figured, once I knew what I was doing, it could be set up again as a turret, and I could load my cartridges quicker. But, that would be later, right now, I was just learning the basic steps.

Sized and decapped my cases...that went OK; Expanded my cases, according to the Lyman directions, or so I thought, and then seated my cases with my .512 bullets.  Took that first cartridge into my hands, wow, my very first, albeit dummy, 56-50 Spencer cartridge.  Looked pretty good, or so I thought   On closer inspection, I noticed the bullet was loose. Shouldn't be that way, so I thought.  Did another cartridge.  Hmmmm, also loose. Then another, and another, and another, all were loose   Back to the drawing board.  Gotta re-read all those papers I've collected on "beginner reloading".  Maybe I missed something

Once good thing emerged from having all these loose bullets.  I've now become an expert at using the Hornady Cam-lock bullet puller.  Actually, I'm pretty good at it.  Hell, I've had enough experience with it  

Called Dan, the technician, at Lyman in Connecticut. He said their Spencer 56-50 dies were made before Starline brass came out with their 56-50 brass.  He said he could fix my loose bullet problem. Just send it to him, no charge for the fix

Until my die set comes back to me, I'm looking gleefully at my brand new Lee Casting Pot.  A new challenge awaits me

Two Flints Loading Area

[Mason Stillwell]

WOW that looks great.

My loading area look clean and neat like that one time, years ago LOL .

Mason

[Fox Creek Kid]

It's obvious: you're too tidy. You will never load consistent ammo from a clean, precise & immaculate loading area. 

I don't size my bullets. They are 0.515 and are a perfect fit. I'd bet money that .512 bullets are your culprit. Use the largest diameter bullet that will chamber even if that is 0.515 and your groove is 0.512. 

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I believe they just take about 0.025" off the bottom of the dies. (I think)

Please post your results of your handloads once their done.

[Niederlander]

There's more organization on that bench than I've ever had in my entire life.  Wow!!!!

[Cooleemee Edd]

Waaay too neat!  Gonna have to have some de-organization classes on your schedule!

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

Here I am almost "crying out"  for help because of my "loading loose bullets problem", and the only feedback I get from my SSS posse is that my loading bench is way too neat or clean looking

Guys, the neatness comes from 30+ years of teaching.  You just had to be organized!  All my lesson plans were stored in three ring binders - every lesson I ever taught was typed out beforehand with goals, objectives, lead questions for the students.  Almost every day, I changed the seat arrangement/setup in my classroom depending on the kind of lesson that was to be taught and my classes ranged in size from 22 to 30 students   I have three ring binders for everything   I have several Spencer 3-ring binders, S&W Schofield binders, Persona Binders, Loading Binders, Casting Binders, SSS Binders, Traditional Archery Binders, Muzzleloading Binders, Lombard Binders, and the list goes on My tombstone will be in the shape of a three-ring binder

But, when you come right down to it, having a neat and clean loading bench doesn't help me with my "loose bullet" problem    That's when the SSS Posse should've been there for me

Two Flints

[PvtGreg]

How deep are you driving the expander die?  I am basically loading the same way as you are, with a sized .512 in starline brass.

I drive the expander die only deep enough to allow the bullet base to fit just past the cartridge mouth.  Once run through the crimping die (but not far enough to form a crimp), I have a snug fit with an un-crimped neck. 

When I reload cut down 50-70 cartridges, I will put in a light crimp because my cut downs are thinner wall than the Starline.  I also have some old buffalo arms 56-50's I bought 4 years ago that are very thick walled that I reload the same way as the Starline brass.

For bullets I use solid base 350gr that I cast from a mold I got from Larry Romano.  Recently I've used buffalo arms cast solid base as well.  I size both.

I think the trick is to use a solid base and allow it to drive its way down the cartridge wall.

PvtGreg

[Gimpy Gus]

Two Flints, I echo what  Fox Creek Kid said. Ray Rapine of Rapine Bullet Molds gave me similar advice once and it worked.  Also, STARLINE Web page noted that you might have to anneal their 56-50 brass. I had to.  Also can you finger seat a .512 bullet in a full length resized case with out having used the expander die? I had that problem and it did not bode well for a tight bullet.  GG       PS I envy your organization skills!

[Two Flints]

I received the following Email from SSS member Four Sixes

Hi Two flints,

I am emailing this picture to you. Hope they will help you in your reloading and solve the loose bullet problem.

Someone in the SSS told me this. and I did it and it works.

The lyman die I got was the old style one so the seator and crimp die (one in the middle) is not working properly. What I was told is that to cut out the bottom part of the seator die. Refiled it smooth and it should solve your problem by allowing you to crimp the bullet. I use the Dremel cutting tool to carefully cut the bottom portion of the seator die off and then filed it smooth. This allowed me to put more crimp onto the bullet. The accuracy was good on all my reload.





Hope this help. Let me know if you need any further assistant.

I am also a faculty in the School of Pharmacy. I completely understood what you were talking about about binder organization. Unfortunately, my office is not as neatly organized as your reloading bench

Good luck and Take care.

Eugene (aka: 4-Sixes)

[Four Sixes]

The credit should go to Rich Heller (aka: Hell-Er High Water) who showed me how to fix my reloading problem. Thank you Rich 

4-sixes

[matt45]

Hello the Camp
     I believe the basic problem was and is that Lyman started making dies before the specs were out on the new case (Starline).  Also, many of us have received one of the initial sets of dies.  All of this is pretty much accepted, I believe.
     Where I will differ from a good many of you fine folks is in the modification of said dies.  Reason- voiding the warranty, and why do something that will void a lifetime warranty when the manufacturer will fix the problem for the cost of sending the dies to him?
     Regarding the debate of .515 vs. .512 et.al. ... We may be assuming a level of knowledge and equipment that Two Flints and other beginning reloaders do not have at present.
     On the Crimp or not to crimp debate- unless the case is so full that the bullet cannot sink into the case it will do just that (mostly with certian smokeless loads)- after all, we are talking about a tubular magazine here.
    Again, I hope I am not offending anyone, and also I am not the font of knowledge- just a few considerations

[Crazeyiven]

Two Flints-

Had the same problem when I started.  Tried everything I could think of ... finally called Lyman.  They said it had to do with an old production run ... they had fixed problem on the current production.  They offered to fix the ones I had or I could return the set I had and they would send a new "correct" set.  I kept the old set with the intent of returning it (with Lyman's blessing) when the new dies arrived.  The new set were worse than my original set.

Any way, in case it helps, here are links to my questions and answers from this site:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,15784.msg199751.html#msg199751                 and
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,14252.msg184002.html#msg184002

Everytime this subject comes up it really ticks me off ...  I really think Lyman needs to fix the problem at the production level or put a hacksaw in each set.  You sure do not see any disclaimers that "these dies do not work well with Starline brass" ... probably the most used brass for this cal.

Sorry for the rant.  Hope this helps!  Good luck.

Thanks,

David

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

The technician I spoke to at Lyman told me that the Lyman 56-50 Dies came out before the starline 56-50 brass appeared on the market and the specs of the dies were not the best fit for the Starline brass.  He offered to do a "fix" on the two Lyman 56-50 dies I agreed to send back to him.  He asked me to send him 8 bullets and 8 pieces of Starline brass as samples of the kind I have been trying to load, which I did.  Now, just gotta wait and see what happens.

Hopefully, when my dies return I can return to loading my 56-50 Spencer cartridges with more success.  I'll keep you all informed. 

By the way, I told the technician at Lyman about SSS and that a number of our members were having the same loading issues - loose bullets, old production dies as the culprit, etc., and he was sympathetic stating that their dies came before the brass on the market. I invited him to visit SSS and to read the comments himself, but it wouldn't hurt, if more SSS members having the same problem, Emailed Lyman about the 56-50 die problem.

By the way, the lady who first took my call, wasn't aware of any 56-50 die problem, or so she said, but patched me over to the technician, who was familiar with the problem, and he was the fellow/technician who offered to do the fix for me.

Two Flints

[Appalachian Ed]

Why do so many use the Lyman dies if they have all these problems? Is it the only die that is right for the Italian, or is it cost? 

If it is cost yall seem to have more grief than the savings is worth.

Rapine and 4D both make excellent dies for 56-50. I use 4D with Zero problems, but the dimensions may be a bit different than the Italians need, I dont know. Just seems like alot of mess with the Lyman.

Cheeper aint always what it is cracked up to be...

[Two Flints]

Hi Appalachian Ed,

Thanks for the suggestion.

Here is the current listing of Spencer dies from the CH4D web site, and their complete link.  Dave Davidson is the owner.

http://www.ch4d.com/



Two Flints

[panhead pete]

Two Flints,

There is another post about this on the site as well.  I have read that annealing the cases solves the problem, too.  I did everything you mentioned above except, I did not cast my next batch of bullets and try loading them as cast.  I am curious if leaving them at .515 will help or if the case will simply shave off the extra material.  I resized the expander and do not run in it too far.  And I cut the bottom off of the crimp/seat die.  I end up with what looks like a crimp, but the bullet still can rotate.  It is not overly loose and I must say they are captive in the crimp.  They will not go in or out!!  I have used it on 4 different  main stages, some 100 yard and cowboy practice stages and they shoot just fine.   I thought the Lyman were the only dies available.   I would not recommend them, that is for sure.   

We must endeavor to persevere......

Panhead