Recoil on bp 45-90 round ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

How 'deadly' is the recoil on a 45-90 hi/wall ?  If you use bp, could youi download it to near 45-70 strength ?

Thanks  gents,

Marshal Deadwood

[Delmonico]

Recoil is easy to figure.


(Projectile weight in grains + Powder charge weight in grains) X Powder Charge weight in grains
___________________________________________________________________________

                                         Weight of the gun in pounds X 80

[Marshal Deadwood]

Del,,,thats easy for you to say !,,I have to get my missis to do the checkbook !

Marshal Deadwood

[Wills Point Pete]

 Marshall D, the recoil of the .45-90 is not much different than the recoil of the .45-70. The .45-90 was originally an express cartridge with a 300 grain bullet, as opposed to the 405-500 grain bullet of the .45-70. Now, if your barrel is rifled to take the stabilise the 500 grain bullets you'll get a bit more recoil, the .45-90 should give about 200 fps more velocity. In the average weight rifle 200 fps more with a 300 grain bullet isn't that big a deal, 200 fps with a 500 grain is noticeable.
Of course you can download, just fill the space with something. Wads, a grease cookie, some grits.

[Marshal Deadwood]

Wills Point, thanks hoss,,,,this bp cartridge is new ground for me.....im plenty used to mondern magnums,,,,in the .300 varitieys,,,,,just that 45-90 looks longggggggg,,,and I wondered if the recoil was 'lethal' so to speak !!

I gather, in the 45-70,,that the 405 gr bullet is the ticket ?? would that be true of the 45-90 also ?

A 'side' question if I may,,,,in the '76win, in 45-75,,,one can not used a 405 gr bullet because of the ejection issue with the longer bullet

Appreciate it gents,

Marshal Deadwood

[Fox Creek Kid]

Let me give you a dose of reality: 45-90's with bullets larger than 500 gr. & guns under 12 lbs. can be brutal. Few people can shoot extended strings off a bench. That's why buffalo guns weighed so much. I have a 44-77 that weighs about 15 lbs. and you "notice" the recoil. My advice, shoot one before you buy. 

[Delmonico]

My advice, shoot one before you buy. 

That's the advantage of the formula and knowing how to do basic ciphering, you can get an idea of what you are into before you hurt somthing.   You might in some cases decide not even to try it.

[Marshal Deadwood]

I was trying to get an idea if the 45-90 has more recoil than my 3 1/2" 12ga turkey magnum shotshell loads ??

If not, im good to go then...

Marshal Deadwood

[Dusty Morningwood]

A shotgun butt and a good shoulder worn recoil shield helps alot.

[Delmonico]

A shotgun butt and a good shoulder worn recoil shield helps alot.

A few shots with a heavy recoiling gun are a lot different that long strings with one.  The way to compare is there, just crunch the numbers, hect you can use a calculator, even have one on my cell phone myself.

[Cuts Crooked]

Be nice pards!!!!

Marshal, If that 3 1/2" mag scattergun doesn't bother you, the 45-90 is not likely to put you to much trouble either. However, the manner in which each type of gun is fired makes a difference in percieved recoil. I know I can take a lot more pounding when standing on my hind legs and firing a 12 bore slug gun, tham I can setting at a bench rest with one.

(truth be told, there are darned few rifles that produce more free recoil than a 3 1/2" 12 bore...they is a few, but not very many)

[Dick Dastardly]

G. A. Wakkinen, gunsmith, built my long range black powder cartridge rifle for me.  We started with an original Remington rolling block in .43 Spanish that had a wrecked action and stock, but "saved" the action.  $1600 later I had me a fine 45-70.  We could still ream it out to 45-90.  I went with 45-70 and will stay with it.

Brass is less expensive.

I've got good accuracy out to 1000 yards.

The recoil is all I want.

I shoot the DD 45-70-500 Mk-II Big Lube™ bullets thru it and they reach out and do a good job.  More velocity would make a small difference in the arc and a big difference in recoil.  If recoil is a question, go with a .40 caliber long range gun.

DD-DLoS

[Delmonico]

As one increases powder charges by making a larger case, the velocity gains drop off at a greater percent as the capacity of the case and the powder charge increase.  Doubling the powder charge in no way even close to doubles the velocity, this is true with either Black Powder or Nitro.  However one can see the ratio of the increase in the kinetic energy of the recoil increases at the same rate.  (BTW this will yield Ft/Lbs)

Felt recoil has as much to do with butt and stock design, as the Ft/Lbs of kinetic energy that push it pack.  Comparing rounds between different caliber/gauge for recoil unless in the same design and gun weight is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Wills Point Pete]

 The original '86 Winchesters were rifled one turn in thirty-two inches, for the 300 grain bullets. With that bullet weight recoil would be less than that of a .45-70-405 or 500. Further, though I've never tried to, I doubt the original rifles would stabilize a 405-500 or heavier slug.

I do not know if an 1885 Single shot, or other rifles had that same twist.
The 1886 in .45-70 had a one in twenty twist. Now the Pedersoli copy of the Sharps has a one in eighteen twist, they use the same twist for all their .45 caliber rifles so those will stabilize anything up to around 550, maybe even 600 grains.

The bottom line is that the .45-90 AS ORIGINALY LOADED didn't kick as much as the standard .45-70. Since this cartridge is pretty much a handloading prposition, the amount of recoil is really up to you. A "standard" 300 grain bullet at the 15-1600 fps of the original blackpowder ballistics? Well, I  shoot that with a crescent steel butt plate. In a 24 inch '92 clone, at that. Load a 500+ bullet at 1600 and it will get your attention and with that newfangled heathen fad smokeless stuff you can crank them out even faster, like up to 1850 or so.

[Fox Creek Kid]

A few shots with a heavy recoiling gun are a lot different that long strings with one.

Exactly!! And a helluva lot different than "sky busting" geese when your adrenaline is high!! 

[Delmonico]

If the 1885 as built by Winchester in original rifles had anything but the 1-30 twist it was a custom order. 

By old terms the original round would be a 45-90-300, for a short time thers was a 45-85-350 and a 45-82-405, but a chart I have of Winchester ammo loaded in 1906 does not show either of these heavier bullet rounds, most likely did not work out well.  I don't have a copy of the Greenhill Formula handy, but the numbers could be crunched into it to see if there is even a chance these heavier bullet rounds could be stablized. 

The Sharps 45-2.4 round used a faster twist and was able to stablize the 500-550 gr bullets.  Same case, different loading  The US Army loaded this in a special model of Springfield as a target rifle and it was called a 45-80.  I had several rounds of this ammo in my hands a few years ago, but didn't want to spend the price my friend wanted for them.  They were F.A, rounds made in the early 1880's but the exact date eludes me at the moment.  I have heard they used several different weights of bullet between 500-600 gr,  My friend said these rounds he had were 600 gr and the bullet looked very long.  If memory serves me right they were external primed but copper cases, wish I would have had a digital camera back then.

[Dick Dastardly]

The trick here is to define your mission.  Once you have a handle on that, you can equip for it.  If 1000 yard paper is your adventure, there are a lot of options that won't make you clap with your shoulder blades.  A neat trick, but uncomfortable, so I've learned.  If you are keeping your distances inside of 500 yards and the targets aren't steel tip over silhouettes, a 38-55 might well do your duty.  On the other hand, if you shoot on a windy range and need to reach 1000 yards as flat as possible, the big 45-90 or 45-110 would prove useful.

If you haven't already done it, get to some of the kind of matches you are thinkn' of shootn'.  Pards will let you shoot their iron and give you more information than you can keep track of.  Take notes and let it cook a while before plunkin' yer hard earned bux on the mahogany.

Good luck,

DD-DLoS

[Marshal Deadwood]

Yea DD...'xactly what im gonna do. This is muzin' for a future thang anyways,,,just tryin' to get a vague idea,,but go do it is the only way to know,,

here,,,,500yd gongs are the deal,,,heck,,we dont have a 1000 yard range in traveling distance of me,,and only ONE 500 yard one. Most of the shooters of bp cartridges make do on 200 yard ranges...I know,,I know,,you west boys can laugh,,,,lol...but its dem dang mountains,,,,just pop up everywheres....

Marshal Deadwood

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I'm making an assumption here that this will be your first adventure into Black Powder Single Shot rifles. If so, may I suggest you heed the advice of no less an expert than Mike Venturino, author of Shooting Buffalo Rifless of the Old West.

Start with the 45-70. Learn the intracacies of loading for Single Shots with the venerable old 45-70, then move on to the more esoteric cartridges. Do not be seduced by the longer length and the extra power of the 45-90, 45-110, or 45-120. 45-70 components are more easily available and cheaper than any of the others. A friend of mine who shoots 45-120 pays almost $2 per case. On top of that, there is far more information available for loading 45-70 than any of the more esoteric cartridges.

45-70 will do fine out to 500 yards.

I suggest you buy a copy of Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. Mike has two chapters on loading BPCR cartridges, in addition to information on all the different old Buffalo Guns, and the cartridges they fired.

http://www.ycsi.net/users/mlventurino/buffalogun.htm