Stains varnish

[Tubac]

Gents,
Does anybody know of a wood stain that duplicates the "redish" color of old Winchester stocks?
Thanks,
Tubac

[Forty Rod]

Dixie Gun Works used to have a British red stain that came very close.  I'd check there first.

I think I'm going to have to refinish a couple (that are very nearly black) myself.

[Delmonico]

I had some for a while I made by steeping alkanet root in mineral spirits.  Did a good job, I don't know right now where to get alkanet root, (that's what the Brits use)  but I got mine at a Wikan shop.     OK, it was next to a coffee house I used to go to and here friends play.  I went in to find out what was in there, found alkanet root.

[Sawdust Jim]

Hi Tubac,
I found this outfit that restores pre '64 Winchesters. They make thier own stock oil as well as rust blue solution, both of which you can buy from them. I havn't bought anything from them yet so I can't vouch for them but it might be worth it to give them a call.

http://www.winrest.com/

Jim

[Delmonico]

One thing to also remember, I'm guessing you want to make a clone the same color, am I right?  Well that will be a bit hard because they use European Walnut Juglans regia  and the old Wichesters used old growth Black Walnut, Juglans nigra.  My understanding is in the old Wichesters that the redish was not stain, but color due to the 200 year old old growth Black Walnut they used, I can't remember from where, but region and climate makes a differance also.  Even if you restock one with Black Walnut you will have a hard time getting it to look exact.

I need a better picture, but this is a Low-Wall I own made in 1900 and before anybody panics I did npt drill and tape an original barrel, it is long gone and has a Springfield 22 Target barrel in 22 Hornet put on it in 1947.   Finding out the barrel would clean up nice and that it was a Springfield ruined my plans for a 38-40.   And yes it shoots about 1 1/4 MOA, plenty good for a Hornet and better than most.



I refinished the wood several years ago and it showed no sign of ever being stained, but that the reddish was the natural color.

An attempt to do the wood on my Pedersoli sharps about 10 years ago had much less sucess and was put on hold to do some thinking and may be taken up again this winter, came out pretty, but not what was desired, looks like plain European Walnut with a nice stain on it, don't even come close to what I wanted. 



Got some ideas, but won't happen till winter and will take at least 2 different stains, the reddish over a dark one, plan on playing with a walnut hull for the dark and am not sure of the red yet, some research is in order.

[Delmonico]

I went upstairs and took a close up of the buttstock that shows the color better.  Got some reflection off it though.  I'm guessing this is the color you mean.



The black object at the top is a Labrador nose who thinks it is bedtime and not time to play with rifles.

You can see some staining of the wood by the butt plate that I could not get out, I am 100% sure this is the natural color of the wood.  You can see it is a plain "fence post" type piece.  The only finish on it is boiled linseed oil with complete pore filling as I prefer.  Most of the old Winchesteers had varnish on them.  This is the old time varnish made of natural shellac and linseed oil, thinned with alcohol and brushed on.  One can find this type still at good old time hardward stores and places that cater to furniture restorers. 

Winchester in that period most likley brushed it on and polished the brush marks out with pumice stone and the polished it with ground pumice called rottenstone,  This would be applied in several thin coats and allowed to cure.  This will take about a week or so depending on humidity.

A full hand polished linseed oil finish will take anywhere from 2 weeks to two months depending on the poore of the wood and the humidity, you can not rush these finishes.  If you decide to go the oil route hollor and I'll post how to do it.

Modern synthetic finishes will take far less time but will look modern.

[St. George]

This one's appeared before.

From 'The Wnchester Book' - by George Madis - long viewed as the 'bible' of the Winchester collector:

"An oiled finish was most popular for arms of all models. Stocks which were to receive the oiled finish were sanded smooth,  then were carefully scraped with an especially edged tool which removed any slight 'whisker' which remained after sanding. The scraping also had a burnishing effect,  giving a natural gloss or 'piano finish' to the wood.  The first coats of linseed oil, mixed with walnut hull oil for coloring were applied and allowed to be absorbed by the wood.  Final coats of linseed oil were rubbed by hand and allowed to cure before the stock and fore end were finally assembled to the gun.  If a high gloss oiled finish was desired instead of the more popular satin oiled finish,  more coats of oil, mixed with drier, were hand rubbed and carefully built up, resulting in a high gloss 'extra finished oiled stock'.

If a varnished finished was ordered (usually at an extra cost), the stock was forst given a coloring coat which consisted of walnut hull oul and linseed oil, then the varnish was applied'.

Winchester - like all prominent manufacturers of the day - took care with the assembly and 'presentation' of their arms.

A walnut hull oil and linseed oil finish is time consuming to apply - but when done 'right' - the piece doesn't have that 'dipped' look that you see currently on so many of the 'restored' M-1's and M-1 Carbines on today's market.

Good Luck.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Delmonico]

Thanks for the added info.  For those who do not know, the so called "boiled linseed oil" is linseed oil with driers added, it is not really boiled. 

For anyone wanting to duplicate the stain, in the next few weeks it is going to be the time to gather walnut hulls.  This means the soft outer layer that turns from green to black and falls off, nut the hard shell itself.  If you mind having your hands stained do use gloves when you gather them and work with them.

[Tubac]

Delmonico,
You are correct. I was thinkin' of restaining a "clone" to make it look more like a Winchester.
I didn't realize European walnut would make such a difference. I guess it's back to the drawing board.
Was the Pedersoli done using the alkanet solution?
Thanks for your help.
Tubac

[Delmonico]

And three or four other stains, put them on, steel wooled and fine sanded, never could get it right,  Also dealing with wood that is moke likely off of two different trees.  Where I stopped was the closest I cound get the two pieces in color, gonna try the walnut hull this winter.

[Major 2]

Here is a link.. that may help

http://www.bestdeal.org/essential-camden/h-waln-1lb.html

[Delmonico]

Here is a link.. that may help

http://www.bestdeal.org/essential-camden/h-waln-1lb.html

That is just all wrong, durn if ya want that you should have to fight the squirrels to get it.  I'm takin' that Low-Wall and some cast bullets and gonna get me some walnut hulls even if I have to shoot my way back out.

Got a new recipe I need to try for them walnut eaters.

[Forty Rod]

I've got two, a Hartford Model '92 from EMF and an original 1928 vintage Model '94, both that look like the stocks were finished with Rustoleum.  What do you folks recommend for a skill-less "craftsman" (He said laughingly), first to get the old finish off and then for a new finish. 

I have used the Dixie finish on pistol grips long in the past.  It worked well, but took a long time and many many coats.

I also have new American walnut fore-and-aft stocks coming for a Model 08 Remington.  They are unfinished

[Delmonico]

Check around and see if there is a pro around your area that the antuque furniture refinishers like, money well spent.

The good oil finishes that look good take a long time, I just use a 50/50 mix of mineral spirits and boiled linseed oil, tung oil has a bit to much of a sheen for my tastes.  That Low-Wall took about a month to do, but every pore is filled.  I'll see if I can find time to write down how I do it in a day or so.  Too many folks in and out here at work to try it right now.  Not that I would get in trouble, but I'd forget something.

[Tubac]

Thanks for the link Major.
The walnut tree doesn't grow out here in the Sonoran desert.
Although it does grow in the mountains on the Mexican border.
Tubac

[Delmonico]

Thanks for the link Major.
The walnut tree doesn't grow out here in the Sonoran desert.
Although it does grow in the mountains on the Mexican border.
Tubac

I bet that makes squirrel hunting really lousy.

[Major 2]

I bet that makes squirrel hunting really lousy.

I've been to the Sonora Desert out of Tuscon...
not too far from So. Calif , lots of Squirrels there ...must be the over abundance of fruits & nuts