loose bullet on .56-50 reload

[Four Sixes]

Hello,

I got a question regarding reloading .56-50 cartridges for my Spencer rifle. I was doing some reloadinn last night and all of the sudden, I noticed that the bullet in some cartridges became loose after testing the cartridge for proper feeding. I am using the Lyman .515" diameter, 330 gr mold and Lyman die set. I am using Starline brass. What would be the reason for loose bullet after feeding it and ejecting it from the rifle chamber? Do any of you crimp the bullet? How deep do you seat the bullet?

Thanks for your answer or suggestion in advance.

4 sixes

[Fox Creek Kid]

Do any of you crimp the bullet?

Only when I dont want the bullet to fall out.    Of course you have to crimp. I've found it helps to resize the cases as well, each time. No offense, but are you new to reloading? If not, then just crimp it enough that the bullet won't spin in the case.

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   I also make sure that the bullet is a tight fit in the case before I crimp. I inside chamfer the case mouth, and run the expander ball into the brass just enough to slightly bell the brass so that I can get the base of the bullet started into the case mouth. Then, I carefully run the assembled round into the seater/crimper die.
   I find that all of the cartridges that I reload for are more accurate when my brass has a "death grip" on the bullet, whether I crimp or not; perhaps ignition is more uniform that way... Try it on a few rounds, and let us know what happens.

   Be Well!

         M.T.Marfield:.
             6-28-07

[Four Sixes]

Don't worry. I am here to learn from the expert so no offense was taken

Yes...I am the "new kid in the block" regarding reloading. The Spencer cartridge is the 1st I ever try to reload. Too expensive to buy the commerical cartridges   I did expended the mouth of the brass just enough to insert the base of the bullet without shaving the lead. I also crimped the mouth of the brass.

As I was reading the manuel of the lyman die, it said that Don't crimp the bullet if it doesn't have the crimp groove. I was looking at the Lyman bullet that I casted and I see no crimp groove. Have anyone used the Lyman .56-50 mold and where did you crimp the bullet?

I did adjusted the seating die to crimp the mouth of the brass on the bullet. At first they were very tide and even after I cycle the bullet through the chamber they were still very tide and not moving (rotating or spin). But now...all the sudden, I could rotate the bullet after I cycled it through the chamber. I have no idea why this happened.

I didn't know if I am crimping it too tide or not. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

4-sixes

[panhead pete]

Howdy Gents,

I have had the same problem with my loads.  I have reloaded 2 calibers on my Dillon, 2 calibers with Lee Loaders and two calibers with a single stage press.  So I have the basics down at this point. 
I have full length resized them after loading and reworked the expander.  I cut the crimp die down as well to set the crimp further down the case.  I still end up with some rounds that spin.  I remember a post where the fix was annealing the brass.  This I have yet to try.  I have reloaded about 50-80 rounds and although some will spin in the case,they will neither pull out or push in.  I resized mine to .512 but I may leave them "as cast" (.515) for the next batch. 

Long / Short though, spin or not, with a case full of powder they feed and shoot well.

Happy Trails,

Panhead

[Crazeyiven]

If you are crimping and your dies are Lyman and the bullet is still loose, you will probably have to take a hack saw and cut a portion of the bottom of the crimping die off.  The link below will take you to a prior discussion of this problem:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,14252.msg184002.html#msg184002

I called Lyman told them what my problem was.  They were aware of it.  Said it was a problem with a older production run.  They sent me a new set.  It was worse than the one I had.

In the above post Fox Creek Kid indicated he had the same problem with, I think, CH.

Hope this helps.

David

[Four Sixes]

Thank you for all the input.

How much did you have to cut off the Lyman's seating and roll crimp die? That is the problem with me too. I can't go any further down on the seating die to crimp the bullet in case since it is already touching the case holder.

Here is the link of the Lyman bullet that I am using:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(dp11fbeyzvobohnl5deilx55))/categories/PARTDETAIL.ASPX?CATID=20&SUBID=134&STYLEID=486&PARTNUM=LYMAN-515-139

My question is should I crimp it in front of the 1st band? or on or after the 1st band?

4-Sixes

[Crazeyiven]

I'm using the same bullet.  Be sure and full length resize your case before you start.  At the end of the die there is a smooth unthreaded portion.  I cut about half of that smooth area off.  Another one of the guys here took it off, I believe, up to the threads...suppose it depends on where, exactly, in the die the crimper is located.  I took the guts out of mine, put it in upside down in the press, put a piece of duct tape on my press, a rag under the die to catch the filings then hack sawed the piece off.  Used a file to clean it up and round the edges.  Others may have a better way to do it, but, I have limited tooling capabilities.

Hope this helps.

David

[geo]

lemme add my 2 cents worth. my experience with annealing is that it doesn't work consistantly and often ruins the case. with the cost of cases these days that hurts. crimp just enough to hold the bullet in the case; overcrimping (too deep a crimp or long a crimp) will shorten the life of the case. Keep in mind that black powder is an explosive (leave no space between the powder charge and the bullet) so pressure is generated instantly and doesn't build as the bullet travels down the barrel as in modern powders (excellerants). you don't need to lock the bullet inside the case. good luck, geo.

[Fox Creek Kid]

lemme add my 2 cents worth. my experience with annealing is that it doesn't work consistantly and often ruins the case.

If so, then you're doing it wrong. I've NEVER lost a case through annealing. I won't go over my method as "annealing methods" have been posted here several times. I anneal my Spencer cases approx. once a year or sooner (about every 5 - 8 shoots) which seems to be about right and my method works great. I get very little blowback and have never had a case mouth split in over three years with 56-50's. I shoot only real BP as well. You may want to peruse the search function here on annealing methods as there were some good posts.  I also anneal my cases for a Sharps, usually after three shots approx. and have never lost a case due to this. Annealing will add years to case life.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,

The interesting thing here is that Four Sixes is getting the problem after chambering and ejecting the unfired round.  This suggests that the chamber is acting as a sizing die and squeezing both the case and the bullet smaller in diameter.  There are a couple of possible causes for this: One is that you have too much crimp causing the case to bulge away from the side of the bullet, but not for the entire length of the cylindrical portion of the bullet.  When the cartridge is inserted in the chamber, the chamber is acting as a sizing die. But when the case is reduced in diameter, it is being done so far enough back to loosen the bullet in the case.

The other possibility is that the bullet, being softer than the brass is being reduced in diameter, whereas the brass is springing back slightly, if not completely, so the bullet is not being held completely by the case.  It sounds like the crimp is more than adequate to hold the bullet from moving forward or backward in the case.  But the case is not holding the bullet securely.

One thing to do is to make a dummy cartridge (NO POWDER, NO PRIMER!!!)  Either "smoke" the outside of the case with the soot from a candle or use a felt marker. Insert the case in the chamber and then remove it carefully, and see where the case is rubbing on the chamber.

Depending on where the marking or soot is rubbed, we may be able to come up with a solution.

Q. How hard a bullet are you shooting?  What alloy are you using? Have you a SAECO bullet hardness tester?  Not absolutely necessary, but might be usefull.

It may be necessary to use a harder alloy bullet.  I have had excellent results using Lyman #2 equivalent (9 lbs older (30 years) wheelweights plus 1 lb 50/50 bar solder) in a .56-56 and other calibers.

The other possibility is that your sizing die isn't reducing the cases enough or the expander plug is too large in diameter. If you are using Starline brass, it should be properly annealed from the factory.  If you are cutting the brass down from .50-70 cases, you may need to anneal the brass about half-way down the length...NO MORE!

I would contact Lyman and ask them for a sizing die that is correct for a .509" bullet.  That should reduce the case sufficiently for a .510-.512" bullet. Decide what bullet diameter you want to use and have the expander plug about .003" smaller than the bullet diameter, with the belling flare just enough to keep from shaving lead from the base of the bullet. The expander plug should be about shorter by about .010" than the distance of the bullet from the crimp point to the base of the bullet.  When the bullet is seated, there SHOULD BE a slight "wasp waist" in the case behind the bullet.  This will NOT overwork the brass case or reduce case life!  I have shot .44-40 brass over 19 times with this reduction and it does NOT shorten case life.  It will prevent the bullet from backing into the case.  The bullet does the final expansion of the case with a tight fit.

Crimp your case mouth into the top grease groove or in front of the forward driving band, depending on the required OverAll Length of the cartridge required for smooth feeding. Don't worry if the grease is displaced slightly.  Be careful to get a good, visible crimp on the case mouth, but NOT so heavy that you are deforming the case away from the side of the bullet!

If all else fails, and after messing around with the other brands, make a chamber casting of the Spencer's chamber using CerroSafe low-melting point bismuth alloy.  NEVER, EVER USE BULLET METAL!  You will RUIN your rifle!  Send the casting with 3 fired cases and a bullet to Huntington Die Specialties (RCBS) and get the RIGHT dies.  Not saying no one else can make dies, but I've been using a number of custom RCBS dies for 45 years, and find them to be well worth the cost.  And, no, I don't own stock in the company! 

Hope this is of help...

[Drydock]

THe current Lyman dies have several problems that Lyman does not seem interested in correcting.  I suspect they are simply selling us .50-70 Gov't dies with the only change being the 56/50 markings.  In particular the crimp die simply does not crimp without modification, and the expander die overexpands the case, both of which lead to loose bullet pull.  As they are the only game in town as opposed to very expensive custom dies, we're stuck with them.

[Crazeyiven]

Sgt. Drydock-

I'm all ears!!! (or eyes)

David

[Appalachian Ed]

My 2 Cents....   I use 4D dies, and a Romano mould and have none of these problems. I dont crimp at all. Just resize and load.

[Fox Creek Kid]

My 4D die for belling the case mouth had the same problem: too long. Solution: ground down the stem.

[Appalachian Ed]

I don't bell my case mouths. It works the brass too much. I cast VERY hard, and the bullets load without shaving like a jackets bullet would. I use 19 parts Linotype to 1 part Pure lead.

[Drydock]

Dang it!  Sorry, did'nt work, don't ask.   

[DJ]

This is based on my experiences, so take it FWIW. 

Sometimes I get loose bullets when a case neck is too large to grip the bullet firmly.  This can result from a too-small bullet, a too-big neck expander, or an oversized sizing die that doesn't squeeze the case down enough.  Oddly, however, I can also get the same problem when the case neck is too small.  That can result from a too-large bullet or, more commonly, from a too-small or badly shaped neck expander. 

If your bullet is too small or your sizing die is too big, you probably need to obtain a different size (if you have a lathe, increasing the diameter of the bullet mould's bottom band slightly may turn the trick).  If the neck expander is oversized, it can be reduced in diameter or replaced, although reducing diameter is pretty much a lathe operation, and some of those expanders are HARD.

With an undersized case neck expander, what typically happens is that the expander bells the neck enough so the bullet can be started, but when the bullet is seated it essentially gets swaged smaller by the walls of the case while expanding the neck of the case slightly.  For some reason, instead of creating a really tight fit, bullets that are swaged into place like that tend to be loose in the case (and also probably inaccurate).  The ideal seems to be a neck expander that bells the case neck for about a tenth of an inch into the case (so you can get a good straight start seating the bullet) with just enough expansion that the bullet is a slip-fit into the belled portion of the case and then leaves the rest of the case neck only a few thousandths of an inch smaller than bullet diameter.  An undersized, poorly shaped expander seems to be the most common problem, but if replaced with a correctly sized and shaped expander can overcome just about any of the sizing/expanding problems except for a sizing die that is too large.

[Four Sixes]

Thank you all for your comments and suggestion. I was offline for awhile.

I found out that part of my problem was the lube that I used. I made my own lube using Beewax and wonderlube mixture. As I seat the bullet into the seating and crimp die, part of that lube was accumulating around the seater and the crimp area. If it got too much, it started to "glue" or hold on to the bullet while I am lowering the brass out of the die. This might casue my loose bullet problem. I also notice that if my bullet is undersize, it will also has that problem.

So from now on, I try to clean out any excess lube as much as possible to prevent that from accumulating inside my seating and crimp die. It seems to sovle my problem.

I guess every situation is different, we just have to work the bug out slowly.

Once again, Thank you for your kind suggestion. Happy Safe shooting 

4-sixes