56-50 "Original" Loads

[Fox Creek Kid]

Well, I just returned from the range where it was 94F and the humidity was approx. 50%.   I shot a total of ten 56-50 rounds over a chronograph and here are the results. Powder charges were weighed electronically on a Lyman scale.

Starline 56-50 resized, 45 gr. Swiss FFg, Fed. Mag. Large Rifle primer topped with a Dakota Widowmaker bullet. Five shots w/o cleaning listed in chronological order.

1. 1190
2. 1153
3. 1165
4. 1157
5. 1146

Cleaned barrel (to be objective) and then fired five more loads. Starline 56-50 resized, 45 gr. GOEX Express FFg, Fed. Mag. Large Rifle primer topped with a Dakota Widowmaker bullet.

1. 1119
2. 1094
3. 1092
4. 1104
5. 1104

To get a weighed .45 gr. in a case one must drop tube slowly and as the DW bullet doesn't sit very deep you have for all intents & purposes a duplicate IMO of the original round. Remember, the much lauded 1250 fps of the original cartridge was fired in a rifle I believe. Mine were shot in the Armisport carbine with 20 in. barrel. Note: the GOEX Express takes up more volume than Swiss and was compressed a little. Then again, GOEX likes compression. By the way, this was a very fun test. 

[Two Flints]

Fox Creek,

Thanks for the thread!

Did you happen to measure the OAL of both the Swiss and Goez cartridges?  Any difference?  Do you have the actual weight of cartridges before shooting?

Two Flints

[Fox Creek Kid]

I did not measure OAL but did check to see if they would chamber and feed. They did. Obviously the GOEX Express load is compressed more as it takes up more space. If I were going to put these loads on paper I would measure OAL for repeatable accuracy.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Those are some nice results.

they mirror my own.

Using a lighter bullet (i.e. cast from wheel weights or Lyman #2) might help, but, would introduce other issues. (leading?)

to get to 1250, I had to use 777 pellet. NOT SOMETHING I WOULD RECOMMEND!!!

1100-1150 fps is about as "good" as I would expect someone to shoot with a 340-350gr bullet from a carbine.

[Fox Creek Kid]

You're right DW, as 1250 fps is usually a good approximation where leading the barrel can begin. These are some of the bullets I got from you last year and I do not know their composition. WW's? I plan on getting one of your moulds in the next month or so as it's a winner for sure as it allows for a full payload of powder plus it sure looks good as well. 

[Gimpy Gus]

  Fox Creek Kid, Good info. I'm getting similar velocities ( as your Goex loads ) using 42gr 777 and 45gr Black Mag-3 and the 365gr bullet. Will try using 45gr  Goex 3f next week since I can't get Express or Swiss here.(yet)  GG

[Fox Creek Kid]

Gus, with FFFg you may run into fouling troubles due to heat. Be on the lookout. 

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Gimpy,

Black-mag3 is actually nitro, if I am not mistaken... I could be wrong. (I haven't looked at a jug of it in a few years)

777 is about the same thing.

Although you can get away with using FFFg, as was posted earlier, your going to need to use either a small thin card wad or use harder alloy.

I seem to recall that the "original" load was not a standard and MANY manufacturers used different ammounts of powder.

I would "recommend" (but not demand) you go with 42-45gr of your favorite FFg powder and have fun.

GOEX Express FFg and Swiss powder with an enlarged flash hole and Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers is where I have gotten top speed without having to resort to 777. GOEX Express burns much cleaner for me, so, that is what I use in all my cartridges these days.

[Appalachian Ed]

You should have less fouling with FFF than FF. Why the obsession with high velocities?

[Fox Creek Kid]

Why the obsession with high velocities?

Actually, for CAS I use the Rapine 350-T and 36 - 37 gr. FFg as it shoots great and I don't want to have to pay for target damage. 

[Gimpy Gus]

Fox Creek Kid,   Your earlier comments about the 1250fps being based on using a Spencer rifle vs. a carbine, got me rereading Marcot. In the ammunition chapter he notes that figure, but in chapter 9 he reproduced a letter from the officer who was in charge of conversions and repairs of 56-56 Spencers to 56-50s, that tells a very different story! Their test of 56-50 rifles and carbines using 45gr of powder and a 350 bullet resulted in the following: rifle=1032fps, carbine=996fps.  For the 56-56 the results were: rifle= 883fps, carbine= 852fps.  That's a big difference! It is interesting that my carbine is the most accurate at speeds of 900+fps. I wonder where Marcot got that 1250 figure?   GG

[Gimpy Gus]

Appalachian Ed,  Wasn't sure if your comments about velocity were directed to DW or me. You are right! I am a bit obsessed. The challenge of developing an accurate and powerful load (within the Spencer's design limits) for hunting black bear is my obsession right now! I think I'm getting close. See below.  GG


Dakota Widowmaker,    I hear you about Goex Express and Swiss! Dealers in this area do not stock either. Distributors only ship in 10 and 25 lb. lots. In this state you can not buy more than 5lb. at a time. Can't find anyone to share order so I'll have to wait till late next mo. when I can travel to distributor. In the meantime....My past erperience with Goex 2f has been excellent accuracy,but slow (900fps). Good for paper and steel but for black bear?  45gr. of Goex 3f compressed is accurate and velocity is up to a max. of 1040 fps.with a spread of 20-29fps depending on type of primer used. That's better but......Now here comes the SACRILEGE ! Based on recent input from Steve Garbe, I've developed a duplex load of 5gr of IMR 4227, topped off with 40gr of Goex 3f. This compressed load is as accurate as the straight 3f load at 50yds,burns much cleaner,and develops speeds of 1094-1110fps (depending on what primers are used).Velocity spreads range from 17-26fps. No signs of high pressure. I'm going to load up a larger quantity of these duplex loads to see if these figures hold true. I  always use a thin card wad between the bullet (365gr--.515 dia.) and powder when loading BP or Blk-Mag-3.  777, however, doesn't seem to like wads!? Buy the way, I think Blk-Mag-3 and Amer. Pioneer are sugar based. Sure smell like molasses when you open the canister!  Thank you for the input.   GG

!

[Cooleemee Edd]

That should take the wind out of a wild boar as well. At what distances can you get good accuracy with that load?

[Gimpy Gus]

Cooleemee Edd,  Right now I've limited myself to 50yds until I settle on the load I want. After that I can play around a bit and see what it can do on paper at 100yds and on a 6"x15" piece of steel at 150yds. GG

[Fox Creek Kid]

Gimpy Gus, know that you are in treacherous waters using duplex loads.  There was a huge thread on this in another website sometime back replete with horror stories of blown guns and missing body parts. The science of exactly what happens when duplex loads ignite is sketchy and personally I would never recommend them to anyone. Besides, SLOW moving heavy projectiles mostly penetrate deeper than the same projectile going faster. 900 fps will shoot through a black bear from tongue to rectum, barring you hit the scapula. I'm assuming you meant black bear & not Kodiak. If the latter, then tell your wife you won't be back as a "friend" is having you for dinner.    Be traditional, use real BP!!

[Harve Curry]

Do you think the mid 19th century Ballistic Pendulum was as accurate at determining projectile velocities as todays shooting chronograph?
I understand they were only as good as the user's math, and after each impact, the wieght of the pendulum would have to be recalculated for an accurate measurement after each shot.
I think I would count on todays instrument to verify velocity and use the old info for a reference[.

I found this article on ballistic pendulum. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/balpen.html
This is how the old Spencers and all firearms of that era were tested including artillery with a larger pendulum. /size]