Bullet and RB lube in cap and ball and cartridge guns with BP loads ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

I have 500 National Bullet lead bullets for loading for my .44colt open top cartridges. Is the lube in National Bullets bullet good for BP loads ?

And, when shooting RB out of my cap and ball revolvers, is it necessary to lube the RB ? Iv so far used wonderlub lighty on the RB.

Am curous about the correct lube for both cartridge bullets and round ball in both types of these revolvers.

Something in layman terms that give me the gist of this would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Marshal Deadwood

[hellgate]

Can't comment on the cartridges other than to say: if you are shooting BP you need a BP lube and lots of it.
As for the C&B, I use both a lube wad under the ball and ANY lube available over the ball. I'm talking GOOP soapless hand cleaner during cold weather but usually a cheap heavy automotive grease (also onthe cylinder pin). I use a curved tip irrigation syringe to apply the lube and crisco gets hard in cold weather or meltys in hot weather. The auto lubes are the same consistancy regardless of the weather unlike the "natural" BP lubes that get real hard or real soft depending on the temperature. My wads are soaked in a BP lube or 50/50 beeswax/lard.

[Dick Dastardly]

For your cap and ball cylinder, take a good long look at either the EPP-UG or the DD/ROA big Lube™ bullets.  My web site opens when you click on my banner below.

What cartridges are you loading?  44 Spl, 44-40?, 44 Colt? 45 Colt? 45 Schofield? Cowboy 45 Special?  How much lube do the bullets you have haul?  What lube is in them now?  Is it black powder lube or heathen fad smokeyless crayon lube?  If you can post this stuff, you will get better answers to your questions.

Also, if you haven't already done it, slug your barrel and report the diameter.  Also, mike your chamber mouths.  Do they match your bore size?  You will be surprised how many times the chambers in the cylinder are different than the bore diameter.

Sorry to answer your sincere question with more questions, but if you can give the answers you will get some good quality replies from pards with LOTS of experience.

DD-DLoS

[Marshal Deadwood]

DD,,,its ok about the questions,,,,,This is a learning mission and im all for knowing more.

I was loading .44Colt for my '72OT  with National Bullet bullets. They are lubed, but honestly, I dont know what type of lube. Thats what I was concerned about.
The barrels have been slugged and alll the cylinder chambers etc, by my pistol smith buddy, so , size,weight,,is all good on the bulletes,,,just the lube issue is my major concern now.

I assume from what you say, your Big lube bullets are for blackpowder revolvers ? Might just have a customer here then.

IF the National Bullets arent good for BP, wont be a big loss,,I can use'm in my smokeless loads till they are depleted. I think im going to go BP all the way. Just seems ,,,more historic right,,,

Iv been a flintlock shooter for all my life,,but the patch ball is a different deal than a 'nude' ball in a revolver. 

The lubed 'wad' ,,,is that an ox-yoke wool wad ? or a homemade deal ?  Is it perfered in the cap and ball guns also?

Pards, I apprecaite it.....any learning is good learning.

Marshal Deadwood   *what LOVES BP, and has forever

[Texas John Critter]

Coming from National they are most likely a hard wax lube for smokeless powder.  They will work with APP, Pinnacle or 777 but not with real BP.  You can add a lube wad to the cartridge to make them work with real BP but it is a pain and you risk powder contamination from lube migration.  Use em up with a sub or smokeless.
Lube wads are any of the things you discussed.  Ox Yoke, Circle Fly, homemade, beeswax sheets, etc, etc, they all work to one degree or another.  I always just lube over the ball with crisco, Bore Butter, homemade lube, 50/50 beeswax/crisco, whatever works to keep the revolver from binding up and losing accuaracy.  The DD/ROA and EPP-UG are real good bullets if you C&B is a .44. 

[Mossyrock]

You also have the option of melting the commercial lube off of those National Bullets and replacing it with a suitable BP lube.  That is what I do with my .44 Colt bullets.  Works well so far!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

As mentioned by TJ Critter, if that lube on those Nat'l. bullets feels like wax, it probably won't be BP friendly.  You could put the projectiles on a cookie sheet covered with paper towels and put the whole shebang into an oven at about 200 deg. F for a half hour to melt off the lube from the bullet, and then you could re-lube them using the pan-lube method.  Here's a good site to learn 'bout pan lubing and casting, courtesy of Goatlips:

http://goatlipstips.cas-town.com/index.html

Now this is what I do.  I am gonna crawl out from under the liability thing by saying, this is offered for you to think about.  Do it at your own risk.  Some will say that it's dangerous, but I don't feel  that it's any more dangerous than regular accepted C&B techniques.  I simply load a cylinder full, then lube them over the top of the projectile like a C&B gun.  Simple, really.  It's been working SAFELY for me now for several years.  Takes WAY less time than melting, then re-lubing.

[Marshal Deadwood]

Ok guys, thanks.

I still have 12 rounds of .44colts  loaded with the non'lubed'for'BP bullets.  Should I take my inertia hammer and take them apart,,,,or could I lube the chamber ends and shoot these up,,much as one would do round ball ?

I appreciate the wisdom boys,,

Marshal Deadwood

[Texas John Critter]

Yes by all means do like 1st SGT Bailey said and lube like our C&B guns.  This is not the first time I have heard of this, I just plain forgot about it as I don't do it myself.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Marshal, Howdy!

Doing it this way only adds about a minute extra at the loading table.  I have a brass lube "squirter" that I got from Dixie Gunworks that is essentially a cake decorating syringe-like affair.  I make my own lube from beeswax & olive oil and I simply make it soft enough to be able to be squirted out.

Ya don't have to pull any bullets this way.

[Abilene]

I do what Steel Horse Bailey does, except I just use Butter Flavored Crisco (I think regular Crisco is fine, too).  I don't have the period correct brass syringe, but I've thought about getting one    I just have a little plastic squirt bottle that I use.  I only apply it to the fronts of the first two rounds to be fired, and that gives plenty of lube for all five shots, works great.  Doesn't melt out even in 100 degree weather.

[Noz]

Be aware that at the speeds we are shooting for CAS that there is minimal danger of leading in any of the guns. In guns firing at higher pressures and velocity(read:smokeless) the purpose of the lube is to help prevent leading and to provide some assistance in sealing the bore.
The sole purpose of the lube in black powder guns is to keep the fouling soft enough that it does not interfere with the passage of the bullet or ball. How you get that lube into the barrel is your choice. Lubed bullet, lube over bullet or ball, lubed wad, cookies etc.
The old cap and ball revolvers were not lubed, of course they were fired very little so that lubing was not an issue.

I have also discovered that the cleaner my guns are the longer they will run without cleaning or wiping. By clean, I mean a minimum of lube on the base pins and nothing else. The theory here is that there will be powder fouling blown out of the cylinders no matter what you do, The less grease or oil that is available for the fouling to stick to the better. I found while I was shooting Remingtons with lubed wads that if I put a small amount of Bore Butter on the base pin and no where else including over the balls they would shoot several stages longer than if they were copiously greased. When they did begin to bind, a small spray of water over the end of the cylinder after loading was sufficient to keep them shooting. If I used Ballistol and water or straight Ballistol they would bind up much sooner.
I shot two 6 stage shoots with my 1860s with no lube or wads. The only problem was some difficulty in cleaning the fouling from one of the guns. The other gun seemed to tolerate it quite well. Since then I have been using felt wads with homemade lube on them but I believe that even this is not necessary.
In an attempt to get some minimal lube into the barrel with out wads I am going to try a small amount of Bore Butter squirted on the first ball in each cylinder. If this proves to be excessive then I will shoot them dry.
My 2¢ and it's probably not worth that.

[Arcey]

Want all the lube I can slop on the C&B stuff.  Guns run all day 'n clean up is nothin' more'n wipin' them out 'n off.

I've found straight Crisco does the job in the winter.  Gooped up my ROA 'n left it in the sun on the loadin' table, early June a couple years ago.  When I went to get it it was sittin' in a puddle of salad oil.  That stuff soaked inta the carpet on the table.  Messy.  Had a pile of folks loadin' behind me all pissed off.

[Grapeshot]

Marshal, Howdy!

Doing it this way only adds about a minute extra at the loading table.  I have a brass lube "squirter" that I got from Dixie Gunworks that is essentially a cake decorating syringe-like affair.  I make my own lube from beeswax & olive oil and I simply make it soft enough to be able to be squirted out.

Ya don't have to pull any bullets this way.

I agree.  I shoot the .44 Colt out of a pair of 1875 Remingtons and when using Black Powder or Pyrodex, I load the front of the cylinders with Bore Butter or Blue & Gray revolver lube.  Comes in a tube with a tapered nozzle you cut to squirt as much lube as you want into the chambers after you load the cylinder.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Here's another tip that works for me, but you'll have to decide for yourself about safety.

I use the same general technique in my rifle.  I squirt a generous dollop of lube into the chamber at the loading table before loading the rounds into the mag. tube.  Here's where I am careful:  I DON'T squirt in so much lube that it totally plugs the chamber/bore.  Since there's NO cylinder gap in a rifle to relieve pressure like on a revolver, I'm very   careful NOT to make the glop (scientific term for my lube  ) plug the bore making it act like a barrel obstruction !!!!!  When the 1st round is chambered, the lube squirts around and provides enough action-greasing lube (see Nozzle Rag's explanation re: the purpose of lube in BP guns) to last for the remaining 9 rounds.  My 66 rifle (clone) is the 24" barrelled Sporting Rifle version, and holds 13 or 14 rounds of 45 Colt: however, I've never shot more than 10 rounds using this lube technique, so I'm NOT sure there's enough lube spread around to keep things running smoothly with a full tube of rounds, but it works with 10 rounds.  Normally, after about 50 rounds the carrier is getting a BIT sluggish, but a quick spritz (spray) with Hoppes #9 PLUS   BP cleaner, OR my 7 to 1 Ballistol moosemilk keeps 'er running fine.

You may wish to debate my technique with yer monitor screen,       but this has safely worked for me for the last 3 years, so I'm pretty confidant.  Also, those who know me know that all things considered, I'm pretty conservative.  I studied this for several years before I got up the courage to try it.  I also shot several hundred rounds this way ALONE before I shot it around others.  It's now had a few more than a thousand rounds shot this way: no frame stretching, no flattened primers, no chamber ring or barrel problems.  Again: try this if you want, but decide for yourself - I see possible scenarios where a mishap COULD possibly happen. (Involving filling the barrel completely with lube like a plug)

As always, yer mileage may vary.

Oh: one other thing.  When the last of my current supply of hard cast/crayon lubed bullets is gone, this will all become past-tense and I'll be shooting the PRS 250gr. BigLube (tm) boolits I've been casting exclusively!

[Noz]

OK, here's my report on the Saturday shoot.
On the first stage I had loaded my normal BP load with a .454 ball mashed down on top of it. All balls cut a nice ring at loading. Since everyone knows and I agreed that any flashover or chain fire would most likely come from an uncapped nipple on a loaded chamber rather than from the front of the cylinder, I loaded dry, that is: No wads and no lube over the front of the cylinder.
On the second shot two cylinders fired. After shaking my head, counting my fingers and making sure that all the gun parts were still there I attempted to fire the next shot. All I got was the pop of a cap. At this point I lost my nerve and grounded the gun. I finished the stage with no difficulties.
The most significant thing I learned was that the cap that fired after the event was setting on an empty chamber. The gun had flashed over the face of the cylinder and the explosion of the powder charge did not fire or even dislodge the cap. At the unloading table I fired, with permission,  the remaining two chambers with no problem.
Lesson? Even the "experts" are wrong sometimes. Will I continue to shoot with out wads or lube on the face of the cylinder? Nope! I finished the shoot by laying a very fine ring of Bore Butter around each ball to seal it from the "non-existent" cylinder face flashover.
I was wrong in my previous post and am hoss enough to admit it and hopefully keep someone else from making my mistake.

[rifle]

You are a gentleman and a scholar Nozzlerag. 

[Deadeye Dick]

Nozzlerag you just convinced me. From now on I'm going to put bore butter over the front of my RB. Guess I've been lucky in the past. I normally use a wad behind the ball, but I don't think that would do as good as lube in front of the ball. Sometimes a small amount of powder gets ahead of the wad because occasionally the wad seats a little sideways.
Thanks for sharing your experience and willingness to set the record straight.
Deadeye Dick

[Noz]

Dick, I'd go either/or on the wad/lube question. A PM from a respected member of this and other BP forums pointed out that an irregularity of as little as .002 in the ball could leave an opening between the ball and the wall of the cylinder and allow hot gases to enter. Even a dry wool wad would prevent this. So, go overkill if you feel more comfortable but I will go either wad or lube and not both. I'm probably leaning toward a lubed wad now.