Original Spencer Central Fire

[Fox Creek Kid]

I read once where the Springfield Armory (I believe) did some experimentation with a central fire Spencer cartridge. Anyone have a primary source for this subject? 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Pard,

Try Marcot's Book (I don't have it here to look up the pages, and I think it had a brief mention in Worman's book "Firearms of the American West 1866-1894?"

In any case, it would have been Bennet primed, so it would have looked like a rimfire with a crimp just above the rim.. The primer on early US FI 50-70s, 45 Schofields, 45 Colts, and 45-70s were copper cased with Bennet primer system.

[Fox Creek Kid]

T.L., I've read those. I mean a primary source or quotation thereof. By the way, it's Benét priming. Not trying to "high hat" ya. 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Haha,

My French sucks, anyway!  Thanks

Contact Joe Bilby (He's on the list, but I forget his alias.  He wrote a book about repeaters in the Civil War called "A Revolution in Arms".  He dug up his own primary source.  He knows more about Spencers than anyone I know.!

[Two Flints]

Fox Creek Kid,

His alias is JoeB, member #59.  I sent him an email to respond here!  I'm sure he will.

Two Flints

[Henry4440]

I read once where the Springfield Armory (I believe) did some experimentation with a central fire Spencer cartridge. Anyone have a primary source for this subject? 

In the book 'Guns of the Western Indian War' on page 151 you can read the following sentences:
The timing of the 3rd Infantry's Kansas deployment preceded the Springfield Armory's repair/conversion of the Model 1860 Spencers to .50cal.Absent any othe data,it is likely that the Spencer Rifle mentioned in 3rd Infantry reports and shown in a rare photograph of the 3rd's Company C at Ft. Larned,Kansas,1867, were Model 1860s.However,if Ordnance resupply took place somewhat later,the 3rd would have been issued most of the Springfield-refurbished 1215 Spencer Rifles.

[French Jack]

FCK-- Look on pg. 125 in "Spencer Repeating Firearms" by Roy Marcot.  Referring to the Model 1865 Spencer and conversions utilizing new Springfield barrels in .50 caliber.  "They were a 3-groove, .50 Cal. and chambered for the Springfield .50 caliber carbine ammunition (56-50 Spencer).
The Springfield .50 cal. carbine was a centerfire round which was developed by the Springfield Armory and chambered in various firearms.
In reading the letters between various Armory and Army officials, very few of the Spencers were actually chambered for the centerfire round.  Experimentation and field trials did not begin until 1869, and most of the conversions to centerfire and converting Spencer rifles to carbines with a new barrel/chambering were done in 1871, and ended in 1874. 
Performance was not appreciably altered by using centerfire rounds in this small casing, as opposed to performance of the 50-70.  Of course the Spencer was unable to chamber the longer round.  The Army and Armory consequently began to develop the 50-70 Gvt. which became much more popular and useable for longer range and hunting applications.  With the decision to adopt the "Trapdoor", the fate of the .50 Springfield carbine was sealed.

There are several copies of letters in Marcot's book, and it is worth the trouble to sift through them.
These letters document that 4,843 Spencers were converted to use the .50 Springfield in 1868, and evidence that very likely no more than 6,000 were done 1869 through 1874.   With 10% of the number of Spencers converted to use the new centerfire round, the great majority was rimfire, and quite a lot have been converted by aftermarket breech blocks for use by re-enactors.

Of course, this number would have outfitted the troops involved in the Indian wars and quite a few more.  The standing army was not very large after the ACW.

So, If you find a Spencer that is chambered for the .50 Springfield (56-50 Spencer centerfire) the chances are good that it was not an original conversion.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I had an old Remington Rolling Block that was chambered in the 50 carbine.  I think it used a 450 grain .515 bullet and 45-50 grains of powder.  Cartridges of the world has an entry on it and specs. I think it is refered to as the "US .50-45 Carbine round."

I never loaded for it, but sold it to a guy that had once written an article about the 50 carbine round.  I think the Navy used them for a short time in 1869 Rolling Blocks.  Mine had a Whitney receiver and a Hawken barrel cut down to 22 inches and chambered for 50 carbine!  Interesting gun.  I had forgot all about that one, as it was before I saw the light of the one true Spencer!

[Fox Creek Kid]

I know Jack. I have the Marcot book. What I am looking for is more info.

[Two Flints]

Fox Creek Kid,

Came across these today,  http://www.civilwarguns.com/9204b.html & http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,10582.0.html - may not be what your looking for, but I tried!  Scroll down and you'll see a paragraph or two about the Springfield Armory and Spencer Centerfire cartridges in each article

Two Flints

[Fox Creek Kid]

Thanks.