cavalry Scouts- Info Needed

[52m37]

Howdy:
I am new to CAS. Was involved in NSSA for many years.

I am seeking information and guidence on clothing/uniforms(?), firearms and other manner of equipment (kit) that may have been worn/used by US Army Scouts during the period from arouns 1875 to 1895. As these were civilial 'employees' I am assuming they did not wear 'uniforms'.

I have tried several searches on the net for photos, etc and have not realy turned up anything of major value yet.

Any help will be appreciated.
Thank you,
Hal

[St. George]

This topic's been extensively covered here and on the 'Historical Society Forum'.

Page through the back postings of both forums, and you should find what you want.

You're right in thinking that they didn't use uniforms - as contract employees, they didn't.

The 'actual' Indian Scout did, though - and that's been addressed as well.

Your style of dress would be that of the common working man of the time, and your weapons wouldn't be issued, since you'd've been expected to supply your own.
You could perhaps purchase a canteen and poncho/rubber blanket in town - sold by a deserting soldier as he headed to the gold fields - but the Army really wasn't going to provide very much.

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

[Books OToole]

A good place to start is The Scouts, of the Time-Life Old West Series.

Books

[St. George]

All of the Time-Life series - 'The Old West' - is a good reference source - though 'The Scouts' deals with quite a bit of the post-Fur Trapper era, since it was a 'colorful' time.

Nonetheless - it was those men who'd effectively set the stage.

Another good reference is:

'The Indian as a Soldier at Fort Custer, Montana' - by Richard Upton.

It deals with the Indian Wars and with the Army's enlistment of Indians in Service.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

This topic's been extensively covered here and on the 'Historical Society Forum'.

Page through the back postings of both forums, and you should find what you want.

You're right in thinking that they didn't use uniforms - as contract employees, they didn't.

The 'actual' Indian Scout did, though - and that's been addressed as well.

Your style of dress would be that of the common working man of the time, and your weapons wouldn't be issued, since you'd've been expected to supply your own.
You could perhaps purchase a canteen and poncho/rubber blanket in town - sold by a deserting soldier as he headed to the gold fields - but the Army really wasn't going to provide very much.

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

If you are referring to Indians hired as scouts, then articles of uniforms and weapons were usually issued.  These were not generally new clothing or guns, but that varied.  Usually, they were issued sack coats, especially if attached to cavalry units.  Also these scouts often wore articles of clothing of their own, such as breech clouts, leggings, moccasins, etc.  Weapons varied.  After about 1874, they might be issued obsolescent, limited standard .50-70's, while the regular troops had .45-70 Trapdoor Springfields.  On the other hand, if those secondary weapons weren't available, they might, indeed, be issued .45-70's.  In the Big Horn and Yellowstone Expedition of 1876, some of the Indians WITH Gen. Crook's column had Spencer carbines, and some had M1873 Trapdoor Carbines.

"White" civilian scouts were employees of the Quartermaster Dept., and were paid pretty well, depending on their skills, experience and useage.  Buffalo Bill Cody was paid $150 per month!  Others were paid only $30 per month, plus one meal a day.  If scouts were furnished horses then they were not reimbursed.  OTOH, if they supplied their own horses, they were paid for the use (not sure of the amount).

As to weapons, civilian QM employees might be issued arms as appropriate to their duties.  Frank Grouard, Crook's chief scout on the Expedition, for example, was issued one Colt's revolver, cal. .45 (presumably a Single Action Army), for which Maj. Coates was responsible, but also bought, from Army stores, another Colt's.  The cost of the gun he bought was deducted from his pay.

Likewise, other QM employees might be issued (loaned) rifles, carbines, pistols, etc., depending on their duties.  A teamster, for example, who was with the troops in the field, was usually issued a rifle or carbine, depending on the unit to which he was attached.  If obsolescent guns and ammo (ammo was usually available by the thousands, even after the changeover to the .45-70 Gov't small arms) were issued, the were usually out of the Ordnance stores of that unit.  In some instances, a few .50-70 carbines were retained at each post just for that purpose.

These civilian employees sometimes turned in the guns when they terminated employment.  A few times, they acquired the guns.  Now this was NOT strictly legal under regulations, but that was usually gotten around by "losing" the item in question, and having the cost deducted from their final paycheck or paid by cash...if they had any left after visiting the suttler's store.    There are several notations in the records of a rifle or carbine and an even 100 rds of ammo being "lost" and the value deducted from the pay.

Hope this is of some help!

[St. George]

St. George's Notes XXI - Indian Scout Uniforms...
« on: August 02, 2005, 12:42:43 PM »     

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Every so often - someone wants to do an Impression of  a Scout - more often, an Indian Scout or someone associated with them.

That way - they get to use all sorts of bits and pieces that they figure a scout would wear.

There was a difference, though.

Early on - such fanciful dress would've been a common sight, since those folks would not've been subject to a uniform - but after 1866 - things changed, because prior to that time - Indians employed as scouts and guides were not actually soldiers but were considered employees.

The history of Indians employed by the Army is a long one - Indians having aided the Army in the Revolution, the War of 1812, and on both sides of the Civil War - with at least one becoming a General.

In 1891 - the War Department manned some Cavalry Troops and Infantry Companies with Indians - but these men served as regular troops - wearing the standard uniform - and 'not' as Indian Scouts.

On 28 July 1866 - the Congress authorized the Army to have a Corps of Indian Scouts.
There was an  'actual' uniform that came about in at that time - and they wore cast-off and obsolete uniforms.

In 1890 - special uniforms were prescribed - with that uniform being proposed by First Lieutenant Edward Casey - Commander of the Indian Scouts Troop at Fort Keough, Montana, who wrote the Secretary of War with his suggestions.

War Department Circular - dated 15 August 1890 - authorized a distinct uniform virtually unchanged from that of the one suggested by the Lieutenant.

It included a Black felt fatigue hat with a 3 1/2" brim and a 3 1/2" crown, A White hat cord with a Red strand intermixed decorated the hat, along with a special hat ornament.
The standard Dark Blue shirt was modified to have a deeper collar "to hold a neck-handkerchief".
The overcoat was unusual insofar as it was designed to fit over 'all' accouterments.
It came within 10" of the ground, featured a long rear slit to allow for more comfortable seating on the saddle and it at also had a pointed hood.
A surviving example is in the Collection of Fort Sill's Museum.

The Scout Dress uniform was generally similar to the standard uniform with chevrons, trouser stripes  and other trim of White with Red trim.

When that uniform changed in 1902 - the White with Red trim remained.

From 1890 until early in the twentieth century - Regulations called for Indian Scouts to wear Silver-colored crossed arrows on the Dress Blue uniform's Brass helmet plate.
The Quartermaster Depot initially stocked this insignia, but by 1900 all initial purchases were exhausted.

Lieutenant Casey recommended:  "Two arrows, crossed, to be made of nickel or of some white metal, three inches in height, the letters USS in the intersection' as the ornament for the special Black hat.

The Office of the Quartermaster General Specifications Number 318, dated March 1892 - depicts this insignia.
The Philadelphia Quartermaster Depot issued several hundred of these insignia and in November of 1893 - placed a second order for 323 additional devices - as the cost of .15 each.

As an aside - in the 1960's - a partial original insignia was used to make a die and restrike copies were made of this unique insignia.

No complete original hat devices are known - though the Philadelphia Depot had 275 in stock in March of 1901.

Prescribed in 1902 - the block letters USS were worn on both the collar and the hat - until they were withdrawn in 1907 when the Army removed all Campaign hat insignia.

In 1902 - the Bronze letters were also worn on the collars of service coats until the Army changed to a collar disk in 1910.

Also in 1902 - the Army decided not to issue the Indian Scouts a new dress uniform - issuing Service uniforms only.
Specifications of 1915 call for Gilt letters of the same design and style of the older Bronze letters.
No evidence has been given to suggest that they were produced, as there was no Dress uniform requiring their issue.

In March 1921 - the Indian Scouts became a part of the Detached Enlisted Man's List - and were authorized a collar disk featuring the crossed arrows - unlike that of the regularly-issued disk for that element - the Great Seal.
Few would actually wear this insignia, as by that time there were only 23  men eligible.

With the adoption of the crossed arrow disk - the USS disk disappeared completely.

In the '20's and '30's - Indian Scouts served as a labor force - assisting carpenters, plumbers and others.
They wore whatever insignia was available as they faded into the mists of history - though one Apache Scout Detachment continued to perform military duties (a wide-ranging description, to be sure) until disbanded in 1947.

In speaking of reference books - a very good reference on Indian Scouts is:

"The Indian as a Soldier at Fort Custer, Montana" - by Upton.

It goes into much of the material surrounding those soldiers and is well-written and well-researched.

No idea where a copy may be found.

The Indian Scouts pictured are in the standard Army dress, though - as required.

Another good book for your references is:

"To Live and Die in the West - The American Indian Wars" - by Hook and Pelger, and available through Osprey.

Yet another is:

'Wolves for the Blue Soldiers' - Dunlay

And:

'Scouting for the U.S. Army, 1876 - 1879, the Diary of Fred M. Hans' - reprinted from the South Dakota Historical Collections, in 1981

If you want a more 'colorful' look and yet a 'realistic' one - Frederick Remington's artwork is pretty accurate and has the added feature of some color.

What I'm referencing here - is the 'standard' uniform as laid down in Regulations and seen at the Fort or in Garrison.

'On Campaign' - as often noted - there was sometimes a wider variety of clothing worn.
Varieties of that are seen in Remington's work - as well as in pictures taken in the field.

The Indian Scouts were led by white Officers - detailed from their parent Branch.
That Branch was most likely Cavalry and they were to return to it upon completion of their assignment as Commanders of those detachments.

They would've worn the Crossed Sabers of that Arm.

Non-Commissioned Officers were drawn from the ranks of the Indians - as were those in Regular units.

The only photo of an Indian Scout - a Crow from Troop L, 1st Cavalry - wearing any sort of hat ornament, by the way - is one of an NCO wearing a pair of the M1872 Crossed Sabers.

Take that for what you will...

Unfortunately, as far as historical accuracy is concerned - Hollywood muddied the waters a long time ago through 'artistic license', and thus was born the "John Ford Reference Library" - a wholly-ficticious, yet dangerous place to draw an accurate picture of the Frontier Army.

The above covers Indian Scouts.

White scouts would wear the commonly available civilian clothing, and not articles of uniform, since association with the Army wasn't something to be overly proud of, as the Frontier Army was looked at as if it were a parasite on the public treasury - despite the often dangerous duty, and even commissioned Officers were viewed askance.

Some articles of equipment would be available - sold, as mentioned earlier, by deserters.

The Quartermaster contract wagoner/freighter - of which there were many - were sometimes supplied with obsolete weapons and ammunition as may be available on Post - but it was more a case of outfitting the 'wagon' than the man - like supplying a spare wheel.

Good Luck, and Happy Researching...

Scouts Out!

[52m37]

Thank you all for this excellent information!
I am interested in 'white' scouts (non-Indian). So will continue my research.
Again. thank you!
Hal

[St. George]

When your searching yields results - be sure to re-visit the post with an update.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Henry4440]

There is a book,US Army Frontier Scouts 1840–1921 from Osprey.
I don't know if it helps, but here is the link:http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S5821

[Pitspitr]

While reading, an excellent book for background is Man of the Plains by Luther North. Doesn't have any pictures of scouts and I don't recall it describing what he wore, but it give a pretty good idea of what his day to day life was like.

[St. George]

I added this one to the list:

'Scouting for the U.S. Army, 1876 - 1879, the Diary of Fred M. Hans' - reprinted from the South Dakota Historical Collections, in 1981

Some photos - covers a short time span, and complete with all spelling errors and a bit of bombast as was typical of the time.

Still - an interesting tale and well worth locating a copy for reference into how they did their day-to-day business on the Frontier, the things that they saw, and the people that they met.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[sharps54]

So I guess the next question is, if (white) civilian scouts were employees of the Quartermaster as stated earlier in this thread is that "persona" eligable for membership in the GAF?

[Pitspitr]

Absolutely! We encourage wearing a correct uniform but do not require one. Check out http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/ for more information.