Reloading trials

[Crazeyiven]

I have been reloading for years.  I've reloaded a lot of common calibers (30-30, 308 win, 30-06, 30 carbine, 9mm, 45 acp, 38 special and mag).  I have also loaded for some not so common calibers (47-70, 50-70, 50 2 1/2, 43 spanish, 44-40, 38-40, 3-40 krag) and have even formed brass (43 spanish).  Generally I use Winchester brass or Bell brass.  I have loaded both black and smokless powder.  Every caliber has its little peculiarities.  However, I've got to say, today, the 56-50 has sent me over the edge!

Let's start with the brass.  The brass is new starline, headstamped 56-50.  I went through and sized and trimmed all the brass.  I cleaned out the internal burrs around the primer hole, and uniformed the primer pocket and deburred and camfored the case mouth.  While priming, some of the primers (Winchester large rifle) setted normally.  However a bunch either went in way to easy or way to hard.  Also, while seating the bullets, some would slide all the way into the case to the powder with finger pressure, others I was afraid I was going to ruin a case.  Bullets used were 300gr jacketed barnes (using them to breakin the barrel) and the lead bullets offered by Buffalo Arms.  The jacketed bullets were a consistant .510 and the lead were at .512.

Related to this, and maybe the cause of the trouble, was the Lyman reloading dies.  This is the first set of Lyman dies I have used to any extent.  I generally stick with RCBS.  When sizing the brass it seemed that the die only touched the mouth and the head.  After sizing the brass it had little black rings around the head and around the mouth.  The expander on the expander die kept coming unscrewed and falling into the brass.  Finally disassembled it and put a touch of lock tite on it.  But, the real fun was with the setting die.  It would not crimp.  With the jacketed bullets I finally pushed them into the case, down on the powder, "crimped" it, ran it through the sizer die then put the bullet in an inertia bullet puller and hammered it out to the crimping grove.  The lead bullets I was able to get a light crimp on them by setting the bullet depth, then take the ctg out, removing the shell holder, setting the ctg on the ram head and pushing them into the setting die that way (this would not work on the jacketed bullets).  My RCBS dies had no problem crimping .510 jacketed bullets into my 50 2 1/2.

Then, after all of this, the bullets would not feed.  Using the "brisk and firm" method of cycling that is frequently noted here resulted in either the bullet being set back in the case some (maybe the setting die's fault) or deforming the bullets or gouging a chunk of lead out of the bullet.  All of this was done with the Buffalo Arms lead bullets only.  The jacketed bullets are not firmly enough crimped to take the mag, much less the cycling.

I experimented with OAL set from between 1.50" to 1.62".  I started with 7 shells set at 1.50 and worked my way up to 1.62." Some were a bit better than others, but all deformed or shaved lead from the bullet.  It is almost like trying to shoot lead bullets in a 45ACP Colt that has not been thoated.  It looks like the bullet is being stopped by the bullet stop and when "firm and brisk" is applied the bullet shaves or deforms going over the stop.  Looks like a pointer bullet would work better, but, I have read here that others have used this bullet (Buffalo Arms) and it fed so smooth they had to crack the action to make sure there was a round in the chamber.

Going to drop the action out tonight and make sure there is no chunks of lead left behind and see if I can find something not working or binding in the action.

I do not know if it is the brass, the dies (especially the seating die), the OAL, the gun or just a loose nut working the press!

Any help, thoughts, suggestions, or humor on any aspect of the above would be welcomed and appreciated.

Thanks for your time,

David

[Crazeyiven]

More information-

I have a lee 50 cal 450 gr mould (and a 500gr) and some bullets poured.

I sized one (the 450) to .512 and loaded it into an empty casing.

It loaded and went through the gun like silk.

So, part of my problem is bullet design.

Does anyone have for sale or can they make one of the cut down lee moulds? Maybe one of each.  Cost?

Two more questions....Is the 450 too pointy???  Also, what is the mag capacity?  Can only get 5 1/2 shell in....supposed to be 7?

Thanks again.

David

[matt45]

Hey, Crazyivan
Maybe you have an old set of the 56-50 dies.  From reading earlier threads, it sounds like the first Lyman 56-50's were just cut down 50-70's (or something to that effect).

My set won't size down enough (I ordered from Midway, and I think I got something similar), but it's a non issue right now, as I'm cramming so much powder in that there is no issue of bullet set-back.  Once the gophers come out and I start on them, I'm sending mine in to get fixed.  I reckon you will have to do the same- and I know that hurts a gun w/ no ammo-man oh man

Has anyone else had problems w/the crimp.  That's a first for me

[Pvt Bill]

Crazeyiven
The Lyman dies were/are to long on the seating die, you can cut, machine,or grind about 80-100 thousands off the bottom and get them to crimp. it was easy for me as I have a lathe.
Yours in Spencerdom.
Pvt Bill

[French Jack]

The first dies put out by Lyman had a too long seating die which made it impossible to properly crimp the dase.  Trim about .100 off the base of the seating die and it cures that problem.  Another glitch is that the expander button may be one that was used for the 50-70.  If so, it will enlarge the case too much.  Mike it and see if it is over .515 by an appreciable margin-- say .521 or thereabouts.  If it is, chuck it in drill press or lathe and take a file and emery paper and take it down a few thousands in diameter. 

Another choice is to send the dies back to Lyman with an explanation, and they will put them right.

Your feeding problems are very likely due to the bullets not seating correctly and the wobble in the case.  I have not tried the BAC 350 gr. but have tried the BAC 300 gr. when I first was looking for bullets.  It (the 300) was a bit short and did not feed smoothly for me.  I currently use the Lyman 515139, with excellent results.  The cut down LEE should work as well.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

As for the magazine capacity, for some reason some Armisport Spencers have a rod screwed into the base of the follower to limit it to 5 rounds!  Only takes a minute to remove the follower screw and screw out the rod.  I had the same when I got the 44-40 to do the article on.  Cofused the hell out of me!

[Crazeyiven]

Thanks to all-

Would like to thank all of you (Matt45, Pvt Bill, French Jack and Tuolumne Lawman) for taking the time to help.

It did not occur to me that dies were defective.  I just purchased them from Buffalo Arms back in December.  Would have thought Lyman would have taken care of these by now.  Kind of makes me wonder about their quality if they are willing to leave defective merchandise out and wait and see who complains before they do anything.

Thanks also for the input about the bullet design.  When I first received the BAC bullets that sure looked awful flat compared to the original round.  But, I had read that some found the fed well.  I have tried every length from very short to very long...they just will not feed in my gun without gouging chunks of lead out of the nose of the bullet.  Just checked Midway.  They are showing the Lyman mound in stock...hope quality is better with the mould than with the dies!

Also, Two Flints indicated that Widowmaker is going to do another run of moulds.  Going to see how long.

And, speaking of long, I did find the spacer in the mag.  It was a black rod screwed into the back of the follower.  Put a pair of vice grips on the rod and just unscrewed it.  Thanks for the tip.

I will call Lyman tomorrow and see if they will ship me a proper set of dies and charge it on my cc then refund it when they get mine.  Not really interested in them "reworking them."  If they will not do that, think I'll just returned them and get the RCBS dies...gulp!  But at least they will be right!

Anxious to get the 300 gr jacketed bullets loaded.  They are really hard.  Perhaps, once crimped properly, the jacket will allow them to feed, even if short (when crimped on the crimp groove they are right at 1.50" long).

Thanks again for all the help.  Will keep you all updated.

David

[Will Ketchum]

David, I am sure sorry to read about your problem with Lyman dies.   I have used them for years and never had a problem.   In fact the only dies I have ever had a problem with were Redding.

I am sure they will make things right for you.

Will Ketchum

[matt45]

I have to add just one tiny thing...
The cost of getting the dies from RCBS is substantially greater- in effect you are ordering custom dies.  And one more thing- the 'm' seating die is better for cast bullets, once the bugs get worked out of your particular set.  O.K.- this is really the last thig- Lyman generally produces (in my limited experience) a good product. 

[Crazeyiven]

Will & Matt45-

Thanks for your comments.  Makes me feel a bit better about them.  Did not get a chance to call today.  Going to try tomorrow.  I appreciate your help and comments.  I know what you talking about on the cost of the RCBS....that was the "gulp"... they are about $270.00!  I would really like the Lyman to work!

My brother told me he has a set of Lyman in 50-70 and loves them (he has a large selection of dies in different calibers).

Hey, another question.  I've been thinking about getting a Chronograph with printer and PC connectivity....any suggestions?

Thanks again,

David

[Hell-Er High Water]

Two Flints,

It seems to me that we went through this whole senerio a year or two or three ago.  I can't seem to find the topic or postings right now but perhaps you could look up the old topics, find it and update it.  As I recall, this whole subject was cussed and discussed to great extent.

If you need any input, I'll dig through my old notes and repost it.

HHW

[Crazeyiven]

Sounds great.

David

[Two Flints]

Hi Hell-er-High Water,

Is this one of the threads you are referring to? 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,12325.0.html

This one has a lot of great loading information, too!

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,5062.0.html

If you find others that would be useful for new (and current) members to read let me know, and I will (or you can) post the appropriate link, and it would be very much appreciated.  I know that some new SSS members actually go all the way back to page 21 and come forward reading the threads that may help them with their Spencer and shooting. 

Thanks for the suggestion.

Two Flints
                                       

[Hell-Er High Water]

Two Flints,

Yes, those are two of the posts that I was refering to.  The thread "Crimp on 56-50 Taylor's with Lyman dies" on page 18 goes over some of the problems with the original Lyman die sets for this caliber.  It appears that some of the original die sets may still be in dealer's stocks.

Another thread, "Success!!! Lee bullet mould modified" by Dakota Widowmaker, also on page 18, shows the bullet from the mould that he is selling along with other bullets that have been used in the 56-50.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,5306.0.html  (added by Two Flints)

The thread, "How have you altered or modified your Spencer", on page 19, lists spare parts and modifications that may be of interest to Spencer shooters.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,2906.0.html   (added by Two Flints)

I know that it takes a lot of time, but going back through the previous post will turn up a lot of good info for the Spencer loader and shooter.

If I come up with any other past posts that might contain good references I'll post the info here and if anyone has any specific questions, post them here or send me a PM.

HHW