Cimarron Open tops

Shotgun Steve · January 15, 2007, 11:40:29 AM

Howdy Folks,
I am new here and I am sure this question has been asked before
but I can't seem to find it. So here goes. I just bought my first
Open Top..it's a Cimarron 1872 in .44 special. So far I really like it.
My question is..even though they are rated for standard ammo to SAMMI
specs. Will factory loads have ill effects on these OT's? Thanks in advance folks.

Shotgun Steve

Michael 'Deadwood' Clemons · January 15, 2007, 02:46:23 PM

Shotgun, I find that its sometimes hard to get a opinion on 'shootin' loose' an open top. I have not actually heard of anyone that has 'shot loose' an OT.
I too would like to hear someone thats put extenive rounds though a OT/Conversion to chime in here.

Shotgun, you should talk to Texas Jack on The Shootist Board. He has several ORGINAL conversions. Hes a wealth of information on the chosen guns of our period, and a dang good guy too. If you'd like his contact, I can get it to you. And, I had a heart to heart with my 'deputys ' about the telegraph being paid for by ME. So, perhaps we will not be 'interupted' by trival 'telegraph request' the next time we talk.

Dusty Morningwood · January 15, 2007, 04:25:32 PM

Great choice. I have a pair just like 'em. I would be curious to know as well, although I only shoot BP in mine now.

Coffinmaker · January 16, 2007, 10:10:51 PM

OK ............... Here goes. Your wish is my command ..............

I shoot gunfighter and I shot Open Tops as my "go-to" guns. Several reasons. They point like an 1851 Navy. I can shoot all Open Top available calibers on one frame, just by changing the barrel/cylinder combination. They just plain look KOOL!!!! Oh Yea, your question.

I'll put in a little disclaimer first. I'm a gamer. I shoot light loads. Lots of them. I'll guess I've got between 3 and 4 thousand rounds thru my open tops. IN EACH OF FOUR CALIBERS!! Somewhere around 12,000 rounds. I've had to replace three wedges. That's it.

I have several friends who also shoot Open Tops. Their soot lords and don't shoot wimp loads. They don't shoot Warthog either. they have several thousand rounds thru their guns. I've replaced 4 of their wedges (I built their guns for match use).

It is posable to shoot the wedges loose. It is posable to get a new gun with a misfit wedge that will shoot loose real quick. It is posable to abuse the gun and damage the arbor thru careless disassembly. The most common problem is the wedge. Heavy loads will batter the wedge until the barrel rattles around on the arbor. With sensible loads and reasonable maintenance, the Open Top will out last YOU!!

The Open Top is a fine gun with really incredible versatility. Costs 200 bucks in parts to change calibers and then you can change anytime you wish. Try that with an SAA or SAA copy. Really fun guns. Don't hesitate to shoot 'em (a lot!!).

Coffinmaker

Shotgun Steve · January 17, 2007, 09:32:47 AM

Thanks for the information Coffinmaker. I really appreciate it. That eases my
mind. I will shoot them.. a lot!!! Take care.

Shotgun Steve

Ed Clintwood · January 22, 2007, 09:47:57 PM

coffinmaker,
How is the timing when you switch cylinders? I can understand the barrel change no problem, but are the cylinders the same diameter for say .44 Colt and .38 special? Or could I just get a .44 special cylinder (which would solve the problem of getting a '66 or '73 to chamber .44's)?

Coffinmaker · January 23, 2007, 07:27:27 PM

Ed,

Usually the timing of the cylinder is not the issue. I've built about 8 "sets" of guns for customers who wanted multiple calibers. The only issue has been the fit of the bolt to cylinder slots. Once in a while, a little judicious "refinement" of the bolt has been required to ensure fit to the slot on the "new" cylinder.
To date, the diameter of the cylinders has been the same in all calibers. That alone makes the addition of calibers easy. The scary part is that is also true for the .45 Caliber Open Tops. Only recently, the OT was offered in .45 Colt. I don't necessarily agree it was a good idea, even though I shoot OT's in .45 Schofield. I have seen several .45 OTs spit the little piece of metal at the bottom of the locking bolt slot. In the .45, the chamber wall is very thin. The guns will still function just fine, it just looks funny to see "brass" thru the bolt slot in the cylinder.
Each barrel MUST have it's own Wedge. Do not try to interchange the wedges. Bad Joss.

Coffinmaker

Steel Horse Bailey · January 29, 2007, 09:17:15 AM

How many calibers can be shot. Wait, you said you have 4. My question should be: WHAT are the different calibers available?

Coffinmaker · January 29, 2007, 04:48:57 PM

Steel Horse,

Funny that you should ask. Your about to enter the world of the most versatile hand gun we shoot. Through the portal passes the best portal passer in ............ lets get on with it.
.38 - In the .38 cylinder, you can shoot .38 short, .38 Colt, .38 S & W and .38 Special = 4 cartridges
.44 - In the .44 cylinder, you can shoot .44 Russian, .44 colt and .44 Special (.44 Special cylinder) = 3 cartridges
.45 - in the .45 cylinder, you can shoot .45 Schofield and .45 colt (.45 Colt cylinder) = 2 cartridges for a total of 9.

I personally don't have a .45 colt cylinder. .45 Schofield for my guns. So, one nicely tuned action, shoot 9 different cartridges. Each different barrel/cylinder/wedge combo costs about $200 in parts. After fitting, takes about 3 minutes to change calibers. Each cylinder/barrel combo MUST be numbered to the gun, and kept together. Inadvertently leaving a .44 Cylinder behind a .38 barrel would .............. I don't want to think about it!!!
Now, If Uberti would just add 32-20 ................ Yum!!!

Coffinmaker

Ed Clintwood · January 30, 2007, 01:40:46 PM

Coffinmaker,

It has been a LONG time since I checked these things, but I could swear (I do that a lot) that the .38 short & Long Colt were .38 while the .38 short & long S&W were the same as the .38 spec .357, that is .357

Coffinmaker · January 30, 2007, 08:08:27 PM

Ed,

Quite right.
Were.
In today's boxed cartridges, everything ".38" isn't. The original rounds in .38 were heel base and were. .375 - .378. Currently, when you find the the "old" cartridges such as .38 short and .38 long, they are the typical .38 diameter cases, loaded with typical (today)
.357 bullets. .38 S&W likewise. Different head stamp, essentially the same cases and with .357 bullets. The only way I know to get heel base bullets today, at reasonable price to shoot in a ".38" is to roll your own.
I also mentioned Cartridges. Not calibers. There are only three "calibers." .38, .44 and .45. In today's world, if you talk about a ".38" your generally speaking about cartridges shooting .357 bullets. Start talking about a "real" .38 and people get a real perplexed look on their faces.
"Real" .38s are no longer made, except as .36s and 36s are really 37s.
Then again, were I to get really technical, a .44 actually started life as a .45 didn't it??
A Real "38" is actually .37
and last but not least for picking nits ............ a 38-40 is really not a 38 at all. It's a .401

Coffinmaker

Trailrider · February 01, 2007, 05:15:17 PM

Quote from: Ed Clintwood on January 30, 2007, 01:40:46 PM
Coffinmaker,

It has been a LONG time since I checked these things, but I could swear (I do that a lot) that the .38 short & Long Colt were .38 while the .38 short & long S&W were the same as the .38 spec .357, that is .357

Other way around. The .38 S&W has a nominal bullet dia. of .360". Also, the base and mouth dia. of the .38 S&W are about .007-.008" larger than the .38 Colt's/.38 Spl/.357 Mag. cases.

Coffinmaker · February 02, 2007, 09:28:11 PM

Lets get back to the Open Top,

Key Word - Versatility!! The Open Top can mount three different caliber cylinders and three different factory barrel lengths. here is some restriction, but not much. Ocasionally some bolt fitting and the barrels have to be fittes along with the wedge.
The only way to get ALL the barrel lengths is to start with the 4 3/4. As of yet, Uberti hasn't offered the 4 3/4 as after-market available (VTI can't get them nor can Cimarron) so we start by buying the gun with 4 3/4, and then add barrel lengths or, Cylinder and Barrel when you add claiber capability.
So we go back to what you can do with one action. Three calibers, as many as 9 different cartridges and three factory barrel lengths. And the hammer is short stroked by the factory!!
"Delta Dawn" buys an Open Top, .38spl, 4 3/4 then decides she would like a 7 1/2. Doesn't buy a new gun, just orders a new barrel and ...... done deal. Try that with a Remmington or an SAA or SAA Copy. Caliber change Delts? Sure, Barrel and Cylinder only, don't go buy a new gun. Then add grip frames. Everything looks good on an Open Top. Army Grip, Navy Grip, Brass, Blue, Nickle, London Navy square back, they all look good and brass is easy to fit.
The Navy Conversion is almost as good. Change Barrels no problem. Can't swap out calibers though. The Recoil Shield/Loading Gate assembly between .38 and .44 are diferent and a .44 Cylinder won't mount up on a .38 frame or vice versa. Poop.
Go Open Top!!

Coffinmaker

Flint · February 04, 2007, 03:06:43 PM

Coffinmaker, the Thunderer birdshead gripframe fits as well......

Coffinmaker · February 04, 2007, 10:13:24 PM

Flint,

Yes it sure does. Actually, all the Uberti grip frames for the SAA/Navy/Army size guns will mount up. I prefer using brass items though. No re-blueing after fitting.

Versatility!!! Not to mention a really great gun to play with!!!

Coffinmaker

Flint · March 05, 2007, 12:34:38 AM

Originally the 38 Colt was a true 38, as it was a heeled bullet designed for the 36 bore of the Navy conversions, a centerfire version of the 38 rimfire. In later years the cartridge was changed to swallow the bullet, reducing the diameter by the thickness of the brass to .357. Modern 38 Colt and Long Colt are 357s.