Bullets for Remington 1858 conversions ?

[Stacey Lee]

I know you can't shoot jacketed bullets in Cowboy action, right,  but what if I want to take a deer or pig with my Remington 1858's in the off season, or ON season depending on how you look at life ?
All my Remingtons have R and D cylinders from Taylors through Fall Creek Suttlery, that being said, what if any is a good bullet, possibly a jacketed one that the cylinder can handle, and is good for the 1858 Piettas rifling ? I don't need a huge FPS rating on the round, just enough to pop deer, "Black Tails" or pigs . I know a .45 Colt can crumple a man so it can crumple a deer too, so FPS is not an issue really.
Also, are hard cast bullets through these guns effective and accurate as I may go that route too because of heavy weights on cast bullets available? Also are hard cast bullets ok on Piettas rifleing ? I know these guns were designed for round ball or conicals, but I don't know enough about them to know what bullets are ok to shoot out of them in modern Colt .45 ammo with the conversion cylinders installed. All my guns will see both kinds of ammo , C and B and Modern.

Any thoughts, I figured this would be the place to ask, as I know some of you hunt more than just steel plates.
Thanks, Sincerely, Stacey Lee

[sundance44`s]

I do some smokeless loading with the Oregon Trail cast lead bullets , so far have only tested the .452 dia 200gr RNFP and with TrailBoss Powder ...nice loads plenty of punch and good accuracy ... They do well out of my 1858 Pietta with Kirst 45lc conversion cylinder . Haven`t put them to the crono test but they do fine punching a large hole through 3,000 pages of wet phone book . Going Hog Hunting next month and this will be my choice side arm .

[Cincinnati Slim]

Howdy Stacy Lee,

If I was workin' up a .45 Colt huntin' load for a 1858 w/conversion cylinder I'd probably use a 30-32 Gr. load of Tripple Seven or 35Gr of ff blackpowder. A hollow-point cast semi-wadcutter around 250-255 Gr. ought to deliver the goods. I'd stay away from jacketed bullets. Probably would shorten barrel life and ya don't really need em at these velocities (800-950 fps).

I would use blackpowder or 777 because you can get higher velocity with less peak chamber pressure compaired to smokeless.

While the conversion cylinders are made with modern ordinance grade steel the barrel and frame are designed for the lower pressure curves of blackpowder or the subs.

There are some "off the shelf" commercial loads with smokeless that would work OK but I bet full house "BlackDawg" Goex loads would bring home the bacon (or Venison) .

Happy Trails,

Cincinnati Slim

[Stacey Lee]

Well, there's food for my thoughts, thanks fellas.
Lots of ideas now. Thanks for the answers though .

Cheers, Stacey Lee

PS. good luck on that Hog hunt Sundance !!!! I can certainly understand how the 58 would be your choice side-arm for that, it screams accuracy no doubt, and of course my favorite ,
" Punch ! " .
God bless the men that designed that conversion cylinder, the .45 Colt is an awsome round.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Please use caution with the R&D cylinders. R&D specifically warns against using jaceted or semi-jacketed bullets on their website:

http://www.randdgunshop.com/warranty.html

Further, R&D specifically states that their cylinders are only to be used with 'cowboy' Smokeless loads. That does not include all SAAMI spec loads, only the low end as defined in the manuals as cowboy loads. While the cylinders have been proofed for Smokeless loads, take a look at how thin the walls between the chambers are on a 45 Colt R&D cylinder.

In This Cowboy's Humble Opinion, if you want a hunting pistol with a fair amount of power, the Remington 1858 is not a good choice. It may have been the bees knees in 1858, but there are far stronger designs available today. If you want a C&B revolver with a conversion cylinder, the Ruger Old Army is a much stronger gun than the 1858 Remmie. It is larger, and the conversion cylinder will have a larger cross section with thicker chamber walls.

I strongly suggest you do not try shooting any type of heavy loads out of your Remmie. Fill up the case with Black Powder if you wish, but limit yourself to a 250 grain lead bullet. I would also be careful about using full charges of 777 as it is roughly 15% more powderful than ordinary Black Powder.

I regularly shoot Schofield cases loaded with about 28 grains of FFg under the J/P 45-200 grain Big Lube bullets in my Remmies. I have also shot them with 45 Colts stuffed with 35 grains of FFg under a PRS 250 grain Big Lube bullet. That is all that I want to stress my Remmies. Take a look at how thin the frame section is where the loading lever pierces the frame. Those guns were originally designed to take the recoil and pounding of a 150 grain or so lead round ball and about 30 grains of powder. A 150 grain lead ball does not generate anywhere near as much recoil pounding to the frame as a 200 or 250 grain bullet does.

If you want heavy loads, a Ruger Vaquero is what you want. Even a SAA or clone must be restricted to SAAMI max loads.

[Stacey Lee]

Hello Driftwood Johnson,
thanks for the thoughtful warning, or advice I guess it was , or scoulding , but I was just asking for a bullet to use mostly, not advice on a modern .45 Colt case stuffed with high octane modern Unique Hercules powder and that I intend to be doing that and asking opinions of why I should be ? I am smarter than that.
I do know people who do that in a 58, but I won't. And yes, it can certainly handle it too by the way. I am or was just unclear on bullet weights, sizes as compaired to Piettas rifling and the cylinders themselves, especially the hard cast stuff as it doesn't GIVE allot you know?
They only put that warning on the R and D cylinders to legally keep me safe, but mostly keep them from getting sued , like Big brother tries to do with every other thing I touch or breathe .
Have you ever takin a gander at how close the cylinder holes and walls are on a .44 Magnum Model 29 S&W ??
Also Ordinance grade steel is ordinance grade steel, it is tuff stuff !!
As you noted in your comments that you shoot 35 grains with a 250 grain PRS bullet, now thats as big a pounding as any standard .45 Colt in modern powder charges that they sell factory loaded at reasonable FPS . Not high actain stuff but Target grade or better .
Another thing since I am on a rant now, is the 58 is a fine gun for killing pigs or black tail deer here in Washington. They just aint that big here, and 900 FPS with a lead round nose would do the job easilly, humainly and accurately. I guess if I have a point and I do, is that of course I could use my Remington Model 700 in 300 Ultra Magnum to go hunt dear or pig or ELEPHANT, but " I DON'T WANT TO !!!! "....
I want to use a pistol, and yes the Ruger would be better, but then I can't tell my kids or grand kids I killed thier dinner with my trusty 58 Remington now could I ? Plus in this womans opinion it is plenty gun for the cats meow for killing things. If it can kill a 300 pound logger it can kill a 200 pound Black Tail deer, easilly. Therefore , it is a fine weopon of choice, for me, not you. Even back in real time in 1858 I have to imagine there were more than several people whom couldn't afford nice Sharps rifles or even Winchester leverguns, so I am sure the Remington was just fine for dispatching deer,etc, etc, for them. Maybe today your thinking a deer wears a bullet proof vest, but I am sure it don't? It is still a deer, then and now.

It is amazing how much people look after me when they don't need to be doing it, or let alone actually reading my posts and responding to what aint even there in them , and I did not even ask ?
Did you not read where I wrote "  I DO NOT NEED A HUGE FPS here " ? .
Just because I am woman doesn't mean I am an idiot. I have been in this game 40 years, been a good gunsmith ( Proffesionally ) 20 years of that,  and have shot since I was 4 years old, so I do know something about this stuff indeed. I just don't know ( I do now ) what a good bullet for the 58 for hunting deer or pig would be, and whats best for not hurting the rifling on a Pietta or the cylinder , especially since I never owned any conversion cylinders till recently. Yes, I am asking for safety sake of the gun, not my safety . Like I said I am not stupid. I have people looking after my safety for questions I didn't even ask like you doing that for me obviously anyway . I read the manual with my cylinders, but I also can read my hair dryers manual and it says " DON'T use this hair dryer in the shower" , well no kidding !!! That being said, those cylinders can certainly handle more than what is printed in them for legal reasons, not what they can actually handle Sir.

At least we both have opinions, thank GOD almighty this is America . And I still love you just because your a gun owner and are trying to be helpfull. That post rubbed me the wrong way, sorry but it did. I know we are supposed to stick together here, and I am trying to, but cut me some slack, I am not a 13 year old girly . I feel like you took me to scholl and then scoulded me behind the woodshed. Maybe it is just me being sensitive ? That is possible, because I am, but I never said I was going to use full house loads of Unique powder, hence the statement once again of not needing huge FPS.....

Sorry if I offended you in any way, but I need to stick up for myself as I am sometimes treated unfairly just becasue I am woman, and I don't like it.

Cheers, and maybe someday we can sit and have a nice Mint Julipp  together on the range while we watch Buffalo go roaming by. Hell, make mine a Jim Beam !!!

Cheers, Sincerely, with no ill intent, Stacey Lee

[sundance44`s]

I know a fellow hunter that killed a white tail this year with his 1858 Remmie and round ball and black powder ...not a problem .... with some pratice these Remmies are very accurate shooters ..

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Stacey Lee,

I'm goin' to ask you for a favor.  My Son in Law won a Pietta 58 this winter and it came with a Kirst Konverter cylinder in addition to the original Pietta C&B cylinder.  His C&B cylinder chambers measure around .448" and the barrel measures .454".  The Kirst Konverter throats measure .454.  He is going to get the C&B cylinder chambers reamed out to .454.

Since I sell bullet molds for both C&B and cartridge 45 Cal pistols, I'm trying to get a handle on the chamber and sizes of different replica guns.  I know what the ROAs are and the bullets from my molds work great in them.  But, I get a lot of questions about Italian replica revolvers and the more data I can gather, the better I can answer my customers.  So, your gunsmithing input will be very helpful.

Thanks in advance,

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

Stacey.  yer a little thin skinned on this.  How in the heck did Driftwood know yer qualifications, and more importantly, those of the next 100 folks (male, female, young, old, etc)  to read the thread?  If you already "know better", I kindly suggest ya read right past the friendly warnings.

If ya jump down folks throats when they try to offer their best advice, not sure of yer credentials, etc, yer gonna miss a lot here.

Cheers.

[Stacey Lee]

Well Adirondack Jack,
your probably right on this one, I was a little thin skinned I suppose ? Probably.
Lesson learned by me of course to tread lightly around here or I may burn my bridge. If I haven't already.
I suppose looking through the know-it-alls would be a good thing to do around here, obviously.

Cheers, Stacey Lee

[Driftwood Johnson]

Ummmmmmmmmm.....

I had no idea you were a woman. Didn't look up your profile and Stacey Lee could be a man or a woman. So my advice had nothing to do with who you are.

I've said all I know about the R&D cylinders. You are right, most products are over engineered. How much is anybody's guess. I usually try to follow manufacturer's suggestions rather than second guess them.

Hard cast bullets won't hurt your rifling at all. Lots of folks shoot light Smokeless 'cowboy loads' through their R&D cylinders, and those rounds come with regular 'hard cast' bullets, as opposed to the soft lead bullets normally used for Black Powder.

35 grains of BP behind a 250 grain bullet is about all that can be stuffed into a modern 45 Colt, and it is what I normally shoot in CAS, but the pressure spike will still not be as sharp as a load of similar pressure generated by Smokeless.

"I regularly shoot Schofield cases loaded with about 28 grains of FFg under the J/P 45-200 grain Big Lube bullets in my Remmies. I have also shot them with 45 Colts stuffed with 35 grains of FFg under a PRS 250 grain Big Lube bullet. That is all that I want to stress my Remmies. Take a look at how thin the frame section is where the loading lever pierces the frame. Those guns were originally designed to take the recoil and pounding of a 150 grain or so lead round ball and about 30 grains of powder. A 150 grain lead ball does not generate anywhere near as much recoil pounding to the frame as a 200 or 250 grain bullet does."

These comments were not directed at the strength of the conversion cylinders. They were directed at the relative robustness of the actual Remmie frame. I have no idea if the frame is made of arsenal steel, we only know the R&D cylinders and their backing plates are made from arsenal steel. The section of the frame where the bullet ram goes through the frame is very narrow. The bullet ram goes through a hole in the frame that reduces the cross section at that spot to two very narrow bits of steel. In my humble opinion that is the weakest point of the Remmie frame. Recoil pounding to that area is my concern, not fps. The pounding of the frame generated by recoil is not so much related to fps as it is to bullet weight and powder charge. Of course, fps is the direct result of the 2, but the backwards thrust of recoil is directly generated by the powder charge and the weight of the bullet. You were talking about heavy bullets. I am concerned about possible stretching of the frame caused by stout powder charges coupled with heavy bullets. In essence, the barrel portion of the gun tries to stay still while the frame is thrust backwards from recoil. That thin cross section of the frame is the most likely spot for frame stretching from the resulting play of forces. I am so concerned about this that I went to the trouble to design a special Big Lube bullet that only weighs 200 grains as opposed to the one that was originally available at 250 grains. That is the one I normally shoot in my Remmies. Like I say, the original Remmie design worked fine with the thrust of recoil generated by a round ball weighing perhaps 150 grains and a powder charge of 30 grains of BP. I do not know how the frame will stand up to the heavier thrust of recoil generated by heavier bullets. That's why I was suggesting the Ruger as the more robust gun for heavy loads. The entire frame of the Ruger is heavier and stronger.

I'll get back to you on the thickness of the steel between the chambers of a Model 29 and an R&D cylinder. My guess is the 29 has more steel. Arsenal steel is great stuff, but even so, thicker will be stronger.

You are of course, perfectly free to do however you see fit. I'm sorry you perceived my comments as trying to run your life. I was only attempting to point out some possible hazards that it appeared you were not aware of.

[Stacey Lee]

Sounds good to me Driftwood Johnson,
thanks for the help, and I sincerely apologize for being an a$$ about it all. Good reality check for me, and I don't want to burn my bridges here. I have and am trying to hold true to one of my motto's, and that would be " listen more, speak less, makes Stacey Lee a smarter woman. But I will still voice my distate for distastefull things. The way I responded was my bad, but not what I responded too, in my opinion.

Oh by the way, still note on the model 29, that the cuts for the cylinder latch are still located directly in the chambers themselves . Good God you would think they could finally correct that weak link. But on that note too, I have only heard of one blowing up there either, but I bet it has happened more . I bet if you measure it there though, it is minute of thicknes' . Like you note though, the smashing of the recoil to the frame is cause by the 1, 2 and 3 forces, not pressures in the cases too much.

Anyway, have a good day, Sincerely, Stacey Lee

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy SL!

I can't opine much on this since there ain't much whitetail hunting here in the wilds of east suburban Indy-no-place.      However, as technical knowledge goes, Driftwood is a pretty saavy ol' coot.  (Sorry DJ - I think hope you'll forgive the ol' coot comment!  )

Any-hoo- I think the key to your hunting bullet question would be a bullet with a big, fat flat on the front like a semi-wadcutter or perhaps a round-nosed flat point.  And perhaps more importantly, it should be made of soft or pure lead.  Even a pure lead roundball will flatten some on impact.  There are also some old Lyman and Lee cast bullet designs that are pure lead hollow points and they have good reputations. 

A full load of 3f pushing your lead bullet of choice from those 45 Colt cases that you shoot from your R&D cylinders will do the trick, I should think.  Driftwood is right about the weak point of the Remington design being right under the rammer where the frame meets the barrel "web" assy.  I think if you look at a REAL Remington, you'll find that Euroarms, Uberti and especially Pietta beefed up their replicas there "just in case."   The steel used for the guns today is better than what was used, but I'll bet that R&D and Kirst make their conversion cylinders from even better steel creating a situation where the cylinders will handle far more than the frames.  That said, I think you'll do fine with a good 160-210 gr bullet, with a good flat nose made of pure or nearly pure lead or even a lead hollow point.  I doubt you'll need to even bother with any jacketed or gas checked bullet.

Happy Hunting!

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Stacy, glad we're friends again.

I checked my Model 29 this morning, the web between the chambers is right about .085 thick at it's thinnest point, the corresponding spot on my Remmie R&D cylinder for my old EuroArms Remmie is about .040. However, as you note the locking notch is often the thinnest spot of all on a cylinder.

I'm looking at my copy of Kuhnhausen right now and the sectional views of the cylinder of a SAA show the locking notch to have one edge .010 from the centerline of the chamber, and the entire notch should be .150 wide, extending further away from the centerline of the chamber. This should keep the majority of the notch from being centered on the chamber. The floor of the notch is sloping on an angle that makes it almost parallel to a line drawn tangent to the chamber. Even so, the chamber wall is very thin at this point. I'm pretty sure Ruger repositioned the locking notch a bit more to leave a little bit more meat there. I often get to shoot with Larry Black, the president of Hartford Armory. He told me one of the reasons he prefers the Remington 1875 and 1890 design to the Colt SAA is that the locking notch is in a better position than on the Colt, leaving more meat at this critical spot. That is one reason why he is confident chambering the Hartford Armory Remmies for 44 Mag.

I had an interesting conversation a few years ago with a friend who used to be a line engineer on the Single Action line at Ruger. They were doing some destructive testing on the 'old model' Vaqueros. They kept loading one up higher and higher until they finallly burst the cylinder. Yes, they blew up an 'old model' Vaquero. I dunno what caliber it was. They captured the event on high speed video. According to my friend, when they played back the tape in slow motion, the chamber failed first at the locking notch. The notch behaved as a stress riser, and failed first. Then the cyliinder split lengthwise in a line extending both front and back along the cylinder from the locking notch. My friend said in slow motion they could see the split propigate in both directions lengthwise from the notch. Finally, when the chamber had been completely cracked apart, the two chamber walls on either side of the split chamber failed, each wall folding outward like a hinge at its weakest point. At that point the entire top half of the cylinder let go and took off vertically resulting in the classic burst cylinder with three chambers neatly separated from the rest of the cylinder.

I would have loved to have seen that video.

By the way, I am an old coot.

[will52100]

I don't have a conversion cylinder in my Remmi yet, am planning on getting an R&D pretty soon.  For my Henry in 45 colt my standard hunting and CAS load is CCI mag. primmer, 38 grains of 3f Graf's black powder, a .030 vegitable fiber wad, and 250 grain PRS bullet cast out of a mix of WW and pure lead to come out about the same hardness as 20-1 lead tin mix.  The PRS has a rounded nose with a wide flat point that makes it a real stopper on deer sized animals.  I have tried thouse loads in my 5 1/2" barreled 73' colt clone and they point the pistol skyward and are somewhat painful witht he navy grips.  The larger pietta grips of the 58' may handle them a bit better.  That is the load I would use to hunt hogs or deer with with a 58 and conversion cylinder, but it isn't the load I'd shoot all day with!

[john boy]

Did, here's some starter information for you.  Bore rifling measured with (+ 0.0002) certified plug gauges

Pietta 1858 NMA-5.5"      44cal   439
Pietta 1858 NMA-5.5"      44cal   439
Pietta 1858 NMA-7.5"      44cal   438
Pietta 1858 NMA-7.5"      44cal   438
Pietta 1851 Navy Colt      44cal   437 ... interesting because these Colts are 25 production units apart
Pietta 1851 Navy Colt      44cal   438
(Colts are US Marshal models)
Next 'have nothing to do' day, cylinder throats and groove measurements ... stay tuned.  And if I forget, send me a mail