A Whole Bushel of Greenhorn Questions

[Thor]

I've been curious about CAS for some years now.  My station in life has precluded me from participating.  Some times I long for the simple days of being a private, and spending 4-day weekend in the mountains around Fort Carson blowing my paycheck away on ammo.  I the near future, once I return from my present deployment, I think it may be time to take a serious crack at CAS. 

I've always loved shooting, and have always been good at it.  When I was ten, my dad chucked at me when I headed into the snow-covered woods of northern Minnesota in search of grouse, armed with nothing more that an antiquated Savage Arms single shot .22 short rifle.  He chuckled even louder when we routinely ate the grouse provided by that same rifle.

I've been through this forum, and others, but can't seem to gather the exact information I need.  I am hoping that all of you won't think me presumpuous for just asking some of those questions here:

1)  I've surmised that 4 pop guns are required to participate.  Is there any way for an individual to participate/compete with only a single pistol?  Obviously, you'de never win the day doing this.  I guess it comes down to how the points are awarded.  Are the seperate elements run as seperate events, or as parts of the whole event?  And of course, I've read many accounts of folks borrowing guns to compete.  While laudable, I'd prefer to stand with my own gear, eventually :-)

2)  On the topic of gun selection.  My means are rather modest.  I've been researching the offerings from Rugar and Tarus, amongst others.  I've pretty much settled on the Vaguaro .357/.38 5.5" SS.  I welcome any and all arguments agains this choice.  Here are my reasons for selecting it:

-  I own a GP100 in the same calibre
-  I will want to reload, and there seems to be some complicated aspects to reloading the .45 LC (second choice).  .38 Spcl are stupid-simple to reload.
-  I prefer the SS finish.  Will I be ostercised in the CAS community for this vanity?
-  The 5 1/2" barrel seems a reasonable comprimise between comfort and accuracy.  Will i be hindered by this?  I anticipate being more accurate than fast.  Atleast to start.

3)  The scatter gun strikes me as the least critical of the 4.  I have often considered getting a quality over/under for skeet an birds.  Are these allowed in CAS?

4)  Finally, for a rifle, I will likely seek out a used winchester or marlin in the same calibre as the pistol(s).  Would something like the Marlin Camp rifle be allwed in CAS?

5)  On the topic of events:  Are there divertions for the wife an children?  I suspect that my older boy will want to join in when he is a bit older.  My wife and young daughter, however, will likely never participate directly in a shooting event.  We like to do things together, though, and I know they'de love to get dolled up for the event if there was something for them to do.

6)  Finally, I've been browsing the club and event listings, and the offerings in S.Alabama seem pretty sparse.  I'm not entirely sure I want be traveling 4-5 hours for events and meets.  Anyone know of folks around Dothan Al. that participate?  How about Clarksville TN area (Where I will be for a while longer)?

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and thanks even more for taking the time to respond.  I will continue to sift for the answers while I await your replies.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

I have the Ruger New Vaquaros in .357, 5.5 in barrel and they work great.

[Old Top]

;Thor,

There are quite a few on this wire who can answer much better then I can but I will give it a go.
1.  Yes four guns are what is required to shoot a match and most of us just starting out did borrow from other shooters to be able to participate.  My pardner and I traded guns for the first three time till both of us got our own stuff together.   You can shoot with just one pistol but then the other five shots will be counted as a miss.
2.  Gun selection is purly up to the individual, if you want to shoot ss that is no problem, the only restriction is with sights and the ones with moveable sights are put in the modern catagory no matter what the gun.  Reloading the 45 is no more difficult then loading the 38, both of them are quite easy if you follow the direction on how to load with a good reloading book.  Barrel leangth is again like the gun a matter of personal preference.
3.  A over under is not allowed but you can pick up a quite acceptable shotgun at big 5 that is where my pardner got his first shotgun and still uses it as a back up.  Did need to be polished a bit but it works.
4.  On rifles your best bet is to get a replica from Uberti, it will not cost as much as an original and works just as well.  There are many places on the internet where these are offered.  My suggestion is to get it in the same caliber as your hand guns then you do not have to reload or buy different ammo for each weapon.  I do not beleive that the marlin camp rife is an acceptable rifle for CASS
5.  Your wife may supprise you when she sees other women out there shooting but she is more then welcome to join us just for the dress up.
6  You would have to ask others in that part of the country but there is a list of clubs on the sass page.

Hope this helped
Old Top

[Guns Garrett]

Thor,
I haven't been doing this long (3 yrs), and have probably made the mistakes anyone can make in getting started.

1. Vaqueros are good and built like a bank vault. (like a Colt on steroids) Barrel length is your preference - I've seen some cut down to 3" and others with 10 -12" "Buntline" barrels.  The Gaucho and Uberti pistols have good quality and reliability, and many good reviews.  Authentic Colts are pricey - but they're Colts, man.

2.  Rifle caliber should match the pistol, if for no other reason than logistics.  Some shooters have different loads for rifle and pistol.  I use the same in both.  The Marlin 1894 model is good both the regular carbine, and the high-dollar Cowboy Competion model.  The Uberti replicas of the 66, 73 and 92 Winchesters are very popular.  I started with a Rossi Puma, a copy of the Win. 92.  Some folks have had problems with these guns, others love 'em.  Of course original Winchester and Browning 92's are out there, but getting pricey.  Most will tell you to stay away from the Trail's End Winchester 1894 in .45 - has a reputation for jamming, but again, others love theirs.  Bottom line - the Marlin 1894 or Rossi Puma are usually available both new and used at good prices.

3.  Shotguns - you choices are limited to side-by-side, Winchester 97's (pump) and 87's (lever).  The newer copies from China are good quality - they have a CAS shooter/gunsmith (Coyote Cap) doing their quality control.  I have seen some use old Savage/Stevens and H&R single-shots as well.  Double guns can be mule-ear or hammerless, but cannot have ejectors - extractors only,  20-gauge or larger (Buckaroos, or young shooters, can use .410's).  Barrel length is you choice, so long as its at least the legal length of 18".  A short-barreled "coach" gun or "Riot' (pump) gun is handier.

4.  Initial outfitting depends on how far you want to go.  An inexpensive Oklahoma Leather gunbelt and holsters from Cabela's is one way to go until you decide how you may want to wear your rig (crossdraw/two straight-draw, shotgun slide or separate belt).  For clothes, you can start off with jeans, an longsleeve shirt, hat and boots.  Don't forget eye- and ear-protection.  Once you get a look at others, you can add or substitute as you wish, to go fully-authentic Classic Cowboy, Hollywood/TV Western, Pony Soldier, Townie, or anywhere in between. The Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) has very few basic requirements.  Other CAS organizations, such as NCOWS (National Congress of Old West Shootists) are more authenticity-oriented (by the way, NCOWS does have a two-gun class called "Working Cowboy").

5.  The BEST advice I can give if you are interested in getting started, check this Board and the SASSWire, for matches near you, and GO!  Some clubs have links to these sites, with their schedules.  Watch what happens, see how the match is done, what people wear, their guns, etc.  Once folks know you're there to check things out, so many will be offering to share their guns and/or ammo and advice with you, you may need a stick to beat them away.  Don't count the rest of the family out - I went to a match to watch only - I wasn't really planning on joining up till I got a good feel for it.  My wife (a non-shooter) was there, and while I was talking with one club member, she went off with another, and ten minutes later she was back wanting me to write a check for two pistols she had just bought!  She had shot at and hit all ten knockdown targets, and was hooked;  the rest, they say is history.

My own arsenal consists of two Uberti Colt Peacemaker copies, .45 Colt, 5 1/2" barrels; an Uberti  '73 Winchester rifle 24' barrel, also .45 Colt; and a Norinco (Chinese) copy of a '97 Winchester pump 12-gauge.  My gunleather is a two-holster (I shoot gunfighter/duelist - two guns, two hands) rig from Ross Leather.  Not a high-dollar rig, but fits well and looks good.  The wife has two stainless .357 Mag Ruger Vaqueros with the Bisley grip and 4 5/8" barrels; a little Marlin 94 Trapper in the same caliber with a 16" barrel; and a Brazilian-made 20-gauge double marked "Boito" (also marked "K-Mart") that I found in a pawn shop for 50 bucks several years ago, cut down to 20".  She prefers a drop-loop (buscadero) belt for her right pistol, with a crossdraw for her second pistol, also from Ross Leather.

The shooting is fun, the clothes are cool (and can get bizarre), and the folks in CAS (all organizations) are the best pardners you'll find on the planet.

gg

[Dr. Bob]

Thor,

If you want to own only one revolver to start with, NCOWS [National Congress of Old West Shootists] has a class called Working Cowboy that requires 1 revolver and 1 pistol caliber rifle.  It is the category that got me into CAS.  Not much to carry and less ammo to load!  Suits my needs.  Have yet to read of a gunfight where the participants showed up with 2 revolvers, a rifle and a shotgun!   But hey, some folks like to shoot a lot and that option is always available!  NCOWS does not allow the Bisley Vacquero but the new model and old model in blue or SS are both just fine!  When will you be back in the states? 

[John Barleycorn]

Hey Thor,
   I had all these questions myself bout a year ago, Warning this sport is ADDICTIVE. That said let me try to help a little. I'm a divorced cop who lives on a budget so cost was important to me as well. The two local clubs I shoot have a "John Wayne" catagory where only one revolver is used, cant speak for other clubs.
  On revolvers I looked long and hard and went with the Taurus Gauchos in 4 3/4" SS 357 Mag. the price was very good and the lifetime warranty sinched it. I agree with other replies that bbl lenth is personal preferance.
I went with the 38/357 cuz I have all the loading stuff for that caliber, and componets are cheaper.
I went with the Model 92 Puma in 38/357 for price, looks and available in same cal. as my revolvers.
I went for Remmington Spartan 12ga coach gun for price, and the good quality from Biakal, Remmington also gives a 1 year warranty.

[Cherokee Slim]

I had shot everything under the sun except CAS when I went to my first shoot with the Ocoee Rangers.  I took along a Ruger Blackhawn in .357, because it's the only single action I had. (I had Glocks & a Bushmaster in the trunk but they're not allowed )

But I never shot it.  In just a few minutes I was fully outfitted with leather, my choice of 6 different sets of revolvers, a pump and a double 12 ga shotgun, and a different type of rifle for every stage.  They didn't even want me to pay for ammo.  Not just one cowboy/cowgirl treated me like this, they all did.  They helped with understanding safety, the stages and the culture of CAS.  My next shoot was the following week with the Tennessee Mountain Marauders.  A different group, but I received the same treatment.

My suggestion to you is to visit a shoot, sample the plethoria of weapons you can use and then decide on what to buy.  The  guns and leather I thought I wanted were not what I  ended up with.  I only learned that after actual hands on evaluation of what the other cowboys were using.  I now use 2 SS Ruger Vaqueros in .45LC, a Thunderbolt in .45 LC, and a Norinco shotgun, with a Navy Arms Puma Model 92 in .357 on it's way from Washington state.

And  regardless of what you may hear, I NOT addicted to CAS, I can stop anytime I want to.

Cherokee Slim

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy Cherokee Slim,

Can you say that with a straight face!  ALL the CAS folks that I know are addicted.   Ya may be in denial!   I am pretty much addicted to NOCWS and dancing.  So many girls, so little time.  Gotta go dancing!!!

[Whiskey Hayes]

Thor

1.  To shoot a SASS match you will need 2 pistols, 1 pistol caliber rifle (works best if same caliber as pistols) and 1 shotgun.  You will probably need all 4 guns on each stage.  You are timed shooting all guns and while transitioning between guns plus shooting locations.  This will give you a time for that stage.  Miss's and penalties that take place on that stage are added to your time for a total stage time.  Now we get into total time scoring for the match or rank scoring for the match.  Each club determines if it will use total time scoring or rank scoring.

2.  Rugers are a great choice and stainless finish is very popular amongst the cowboys.  5.5" barrels are a good choice.  38's are a good choice because of economics, being competitive and ease of reloading.  I started with .38's and later switched to .45's so I could shoot Classic Cowboy.  The .45 is picky at the lower end of the loading charts.  I shot a thousand rounds each of eleven different powders to find a good low end performing load.  .38's are a good starting caliber and if you have the natural talent, the time to practice and reload, it is the best caliber to perform at the top of this game.

3.  Over&Unders are not SASS legal.  The shotgun can be any sidexside with no ejectors, extractors only, single or double trigger is fine, hammerless or hammered.  I would recommend a hammerless starting out.  '97 Win. pump or clone is fine.  The only other shotgun choice is the '87 lever action.  I wouldn't recommend the '87 for someone starting out, it is prone to have some problems.  For the beginner I would recommend the pump or hammerless double.  Either of the 2 can be picked up used at a resonable price.  The shotgun is odd in SASS, it is the gun we are willing to pay the least amount of money but where you place is usually determined by how well you shoot the shotgun.

4.  If your pistols are .38's get your rifle in the same caliber.  Life is easier.  I'm not familiar with the Marlin Camp gun but Marlin's are a good economical rifle for this game.  Whatever rifle you choose make sure it will hold 10 rounds of .357 mag.  The '92 Win and clones are ok but can be cartridge length picky when it comes to feeding into the chamber.  Most Marlin's will feed .38's fine.  A lot of '92 shooter have to use .357 mag brass for reliable rifle functioning.  A '66 or '73 is perfect for SASS but cost can be prohibitive.  A Marlin can be just as competitive.  I started with a '94 Win, but not good for SASS.

5.  The monthly matches don't offer a lot for nonshooters and most don't have any side matches.  Your wife could learn to keep score (takes about 15 seconds to learn) and very much appreciated.  Your kids could pick up brass (this is a treat for awhile but after a few match's they will get bored with it).  They can all dress up and this can be fun in itself but monthly matches don't have costume contests.

6.  I shoot with the Wartrace Regulators located just outside of Wartrace, TN.  This is about 2 hour drive from Clarksville, TN to the South East.  We have a lot of visitors/guests to stop by during our monthly match's and all are very welcome.  This would be a good day trip for the family.  We shoot on the 1st Sat. of every month but will cancel due to freesing weather.  We will require new SASS shooters to attend an orientation.  This is a one on one session with a club member, we will walk you through a stage from the gun cart to the loading table, firing line and unloading table back to the gun cart (a gun cart is not required but a major convience).  If you would like to visit our range on a nonshooting day let me know, I will be happy to meet you and will work out a day convenient for both of us.  We have a dedicated SASS range that is second to none.  I'll bring my guns and we'll shoot.

There is a club in Bowling Green but don't know where it is or when they shoot.  A new club has opend to the west of Clarksville in Kentucky but don't know where it is either.  A lot of our members are shooting there and can tell you where and when.  I'm not sure of the South Alabama location.

7.  Shooting leather is something you will need and can get costly.  A gun cart is a major convience but not requried.

Whiskey Hayes

[Black Creek Mike]

 I do not know of a club in Alabama further south than the Alabama Rangers in Shelby County. I think there are three clubs shooting at the Steel City Range in Hoover now that the Gallant Gunfighters have moved there. North Alabame Regulators have a range just north of Guntersville so that is not too far from Tn.

[Wymore Wrangler]

All I can add is go and have the most fun of your life...

[Driftwood Johnson]

I've surmised that 4 pop guns are required to participate.  Is there any way for an individual to participate/compete with only a single pistol?  Obviously, you'de never win the day doing this.  I guess it comes down to how the points are awarded.

Years ago, when CAS first started, one pistol was common. But 2 pistols soon became standard, simply because most guys thought shooting 2 pistols was more fun than 1. The first club I ever shot at used to use just one pistol, but they soon went to 2. Many times I have seen it said that you could simply shoot one pistol and either reload on the clock, or take the misses. The truth is, I have never seen this done. For whatever reason, it just doesn't get done very much. Relying on your own equipment is a laudable standard, but it is not necessary in this sport. Rather than wait until you are completely outfitted, show up with what you have. Call the match director and he  may be able to hook you up with someone who can provide you with some loaners. This way you will get to try out different guns and form opinions on them rather than buying something you may ultimately be unhappy with.

Are the seperate elements run as seperate events, or as parts of the whole event?

No. This is a common misconception that beginners often have. During a normal CAS match, there are no separate pistol, rifle, or shotgun competitions. The stage you shoot will dictate what guns are shot at the stage. It may be both pistols, rifle, and shotgun, or it may be some combination. Side matches, at large events, are a different story. Some of the sidematches available at large events are Speed Pistol, Speed Rifle, Long Range Rifle, and a bunch of others.

And of course, I've read many accounts of folks borrowing guns to compete.  While laudable, I'd prefer to stand with my own gear, eventually :-)

On the topic of gun selection.  My means are rather modest.  I've been researching the offerings from Rugar and Tarus, amongst others.  I've pretty much settled on the Vaguaro .357/.38 5.5" SS.  I welcome any and all arguments agains this choice. 

Vaqueros are a fine choice. whether blue or stainless is largely a matter of personal preference. Contrary to popular belief, Stainless is no easier to clean than Blued steel, both require the exact same amount of elbow grease. Trust me on this. Stainless will be corrosion resistant, but that is almost a moot issue with modern powders. Stanless sometimes glints in the sun and can be a bit inconvenient. Blue sights can dissapear against dark targets. You pays your money, you makes your choice.

Here are my reasons for selecting it:

-  I own a GP100 in the same calibre
-  I will want to reload, and there seems to be some complicated aspects to reloading the .45 LC (second choice).  .38 Spcl are stupid-simple to reload.

Personally, I think the 45 Colt is very simple to reload too. I actually think it is slightly easier to relaod than 38 Sp, because all the components are bigger and easier to handle. But no matter what you do, 45 Colt will always be more expensive to reload than 45 Colt because of the cost of lead, brass, and powder. Furthermore, an awful lot of shooters decide they don't like the recoil of 45 Colt, then go through all kinds of monkey business trying to get it to behave like 38Sp. If you want to shoot 38s, then shoot 38s.

-  I prefer the SS finish.  Will I be ostercised in the CAS community for this vanity?

No, plenty of shooters use Stainless guns.

-  The 5 1/2" barrel seems a reasonable comprimise between comfort and accuracy.  Will i be hindered by this?  I anticipate being more accurate than fast.  Atleast to start.

5 1/2" is the most common barrel length.

3)  The scatter gun strikes me as the least critical of the 4.  I have often considered getting a quality over/under for skeet an birds.  Are these allowed in CAS? No.

On the topic of events:  Are there divertions for the wife an children?  I suspect that my older boy will want to join in when he is a bit older.  My wife and young daughter, however, will likely never participate directly in a shooting event.  We like to do things together, though, and I know they'de love to get dolled up for the event if there was something for them to do.

No, there are no 'diversions'. Everyone spends all day with their posse, and participates in shooting, as well as the posse chores, like spotting, manning the tables, etc. However CAS is a very social sport. You will make new friends at every match, and you will enjoy their company. As far as your wife and son are concerned, it is up to them. Many wives have helped out with posse duties, particularly scoring, and discovered they wanted to start shooting too. Youngsters are always welcome as brass rats, because so many of the shooters have bad knees, backs, and ankles. Whether or not they want to participate is up to them.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

All I can add is go and have the most fun of your life...

There's iron in WW's words. 

By the way, I shoot with one pard who often just shoots with one pistol. He reloads it on the clock for the other 5 shots. He's fast. I can't beat him even when he has the handicap of just one pistol and I have two. I can reload 5 in about 12-18 seconds, depending on whether I fumble or not. This guy shoots a Ruger and he does the reload in under 10 seconds. Why does he do it? For the FUN of it. Start with one and pick up the second later on.

Welcome to the game.

[Big Dipstick]

First off the Rugers in SS 5 1/2 are a great choice, some of the best shooters I know use them.
And no you won't get any greif from other shooters cuz .38 and .45 are the 2 most popular rounds being used in CAS.

Second you'll want to get the best leather you can afford the first time out, this includes a rig with 2 holsters and a shotgun belt. Some of the best are the Longhunter rig by Kirkpatrick leather as well as the Lead Dispencer rig and also the Evil Roy model by Bob Mernickle there are other various rigs by both makers as well but these mentioned are verry poular with some of the best shooters in this sport. As to the shotgun belt I think that the best one out there right now is the Quick Cal belt put out by Bob Mernickle, but Kirkpatrick and a host of other leather makers make good ones as well.

As far as the rifle goes I would stay away from a model 94 Winchester and go with the Marlin, I'm not sure what the camp carbine is but as long as its a Marlin model 94 lever gun it is SASS legal. The little CB model is inexpensive and a pretty good all around first rifle, but if you can scrape up the funds the model 66 or 73 Winchester reproductions put out by Uberti and now Chapparal arms are the top choices for this game, with the 73 being the most popular partly due to it being easier to disasemble for cleaning.

Over and under shotguns are not legal for CAS, a good first choice is the Remminton Spartan SxS or one by Stoeger. A list of approved guns can be found on the SASS website www.sassnet.com

A great place to get Rugers is www.cowboygunworks.com he can usually get consecutive serial numbered sets which alot of other Ruger distributors have a hard time getting. His phone # is 603-425-1189 Jim Mcmahon aka Jimmy Spurs Prop. he is a top notch cowboy gunsmith and can set you right up.