Remington 1858 not in Wikipedia

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Revolvers

I'm sure that needs fixin', but I'm not an expert.

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

Nothing under their listing for the company, either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Arms

[St. George]

Try typing in what they 'are' as opposed to how they're marketed.

From wikipedia:

Remington New Model Revolver (Revolver, .44)
Remington Model 1861 ('Old Model'; Revolver, .44)
Remington-Beals Revolver (Revolver, .36)

Remington never referred to them by that 'model' but modern-day retailers do.

Incidentally - 'wikipedia' is a sort of 'do-it-yourself' encyclopedia - you can add information at will.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

I searched all the terms you listed - nada

Could you give a link?  I'd like to see what I am doing wrong.

I have added to several wiki-subjects, but I tend only to add when I consider myself an "expert".  There are many here that know far more than me. 

[St. George]

Certainly.

Go to their 'search' box and type in 'Remington-Beals'.

You'll get a hit that if clicked on, will take you to a section on small arms.

Look at 'revolvers' - or 'handguns' - one or the other, since it's about all you can go to in the category.

Here's my caveat - I didn't bother to go exploring further, so I have zero idea of what their information may be, since I own some good reference books.

If you're really curious, and don't own any decent references - then try www.dogpile.com for your quest.

Good Luck.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

Ok

Typing "Remington-Beals"  takes you to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=%27Remington-Beals"

There you will find, listed under sidearms, obsolete you will find listed:

Remington New Model Revolver

When you click on the page it takes you to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Remington_New_Model_Revolver&action=edit

Which says the following:

Article not found
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact title. Please search for Remington New Model Revolver in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.

Log in or create an account to start the Remington New Model Revolver article
Submit the content that you wish to have created.
Search for "Remington New Model Revolver" in existing articles.
Look for "Remington New Model Revolver" in Wiktionary, our sister dictionary project.
Look for "Remington New Model Revolver" in the Wikimedia Commons, our repository for free images, music, sound, and video.
Look for pages within Wikipedia linking to this article.
If you expected a page to be here, it has probably been deleted (see the criteria for speedy deletion for possible reasons). You may wish to check the deletion log and/or the deletion discussion page. Alternatively, the page may not yet be visible due to a delay in updating the database. Try the purge function, and wait a few minutes before attempting to recreate the page.

So, in essence, my original statement stands.  Wikipedia does not seem to have an artical about it, and I do not consider myself an expert, so I am reluctant to add it.

Nor is it listed under Remington, the company.

With all due respect, it seems you missed the point, I was pointing out there was no artical, nor was "remington" listed under types of revolvers, nor was the pistol listed as a gun that Remington ever made.  This is clearly a mistake, and, as Remington enthusiasts, I thought there might be some interest in correcting it.

Thanks for your help, anyway.

Cyrus

[St. George]

'But' - there's a listing for it - and it's in wikipedia.

Fleshing it out is up to someone else.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

'But' - there's a listing for it - and it's in wikipedia.

Fleshing it out is up to someone else.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Okay.

[Qball]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_1858

Not that hard to find.
And St. George aint' no troll, he have more info than we can take

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_1858

Not that hard to find.
And St. George aint' no troll, he have more info than we can take

Thanks QBall.  I appreciate when I get quick answers and links as opposed to ... well, what I got from St. George.

What started this was a simple question - did the Orginal Remington 1858 have a brass trigger guard.  Now my questions are:

1. What did Remington sell this as:  New Army or 1858? 

I base this upon St. George's statement:  "Remington never referred to them by that 'model' but modern-day retailers do."

So what did they call it?

2. Did the original have a brass trigger guard?

My original thought that came to me as I was cleaning my 1858

3. Was it a copy of the Whitney Second Model?

THe third question was based upon my faulty assumption that the Spiller and Burr pistol was based on the Remington.  However, I found this was not true.  Rather, it was based upon the Whitney.

Burton selected the Whitney revolver, Second Model, First Type as a model arm for Spiller & Burr. Burton based his decision on the merits of the arm's performance, stability, design, and ease of construction. The arm was a descendant of Eli Whitney, Jr.'s .36 caliber, single action, percussion revolver, which was patented in 1854 as U.S. Patent No. 11,447. This model was in production at the Whitneyville factory outside of New Haven, Connecticut in 1861.

http://www.csarmory.org/spiller/spiller.html

Which makes its production prior to the Remington.

Thanks

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mr. Tolman, I know the answers to all your questions but your conduct towards St. George was rude, caustic and implies ignorance. He was trying to help. Good luck, you'll need it.   

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

Mr. Tolman, I know the answers to all your questions but your conduct towards St. George was rude, caustic and implies ignorance. He was trying to help. Good luck, you'll need it.   

Thanks.  I appreciate your willingness to help.


By the way, I really don't think I was either rude or caustic until I felt that St. George was giving deliberatly misleading or wrong answers.  However, your opinion is clearly different.

What I have found so far:

http://www.civilwar.si.edu/weapons_remington.html

Judging by the picture, I would say the original pictured there did indeed have brass.  Also, it seems, that the Smithsonian refers to it as the "New Model Army."  So, it seems safe to assume that it was marketed and sold as such, unless the smithsonian is off base.

Lastly, sir, my conduct was totally based upon ignorance.  After all, I didn't know the answers, so I was, indeed ignorant of the answers to my questions.  But I will report myself to the moderators and let them decide if my behavior was out of bounds. 


Edit:  I hit the "report this post" and got a "you can't report your own post" message, so I dropped a PM to the forum moderator.  I'll live by what the mod says.

[Qball]

By the way, I really don't think I was either rude or caustic until I felt that St. George was giving deliberatly misleading or wrong answers.  However, your opinion is clearly different.

By using St. Georges search sugestions did i find the information i posted.

Half the fun of this internet thing is finding information by one self.
And while flipin' through the sites one might find something other that is useful.
Have fun and god luck.

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

By using St. Georges search sugestions did i find the information i posted.

Half the fun of this internet thing is finding information by one self.
And while flipin' through the sites one might find something other that is useful.
Have fun and god luck.

Never found it myself using the criteria that St. George set forth.  However, I agree that sometimes just flipping through is half the fun.  All I was trying to do was note that the starting point for many - wikipedia - did not have anything in the places that I expected, and the real experts in this forum may wish to update that.

As I said I would, I asked the forum mod for his input and he gave a very good analysis of what happened and then suggested that three statements I made were "unnecessary".  I will edit them out, myself.

If he gives permission, I will quote his whole response.

[Bull Schmitt]

Gentlemen:

W. Cyrus Tolman has contacted me as moderator and I have discussed this thread with him. The discussion of the conduct of anyone involved in this discussion should be addressed to me via PM and NOT discussed here.

In an effort to clarify things I think the two technical questions W. Cyrus Tolman had can be answered as follows:

1. What did Remington sell this as:  New Army or 1858? 

Except for modern replicas there was no model 1858. There were the Remington Beals Army, Model 1861 Army and what is commonly know as the New Model Army. The New Model Army was made from 1863 to 1878 and is what the replica makers call an 1858 because the patent date is Sept. 14, 1858. The top pf the barrel is marked "Patented Sept. 14, 1858/E. Remington & Sons, Ilion, New York, U.S.A./New Model".

2. Did the original have a brass trigger guard?

I have never seen any reference to anything but a brass trigger guard. However I would not be surprised to hear of a special ordered revolvers with either a nickel finished or silver plated trigger guard.

Please keep any further discussion of this topic free of personal comments regarding other posters.

Your pard,

Bull Schmitt
SCORRS Moderator 

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

Since he allowed me, I will quote his response, deleting only the passages that I already deleted.

Howdy,

Thanks for contarting me regarding the discussion you are having. I don't know St. George personally but I do notice he seems to be a wealth of information. I think what I am seeing here is a simple miscommunication as a result of trying to hold a "conversation" via the Internet. As you contend the the links in Wikipedia are not as reliable as they should be. I think St George does not use Wikipedia very much and was only pointing out that there were some links a vailable regarding the general subject of Remington Revolvers. While "you were expecting valid links I don't think he checked them to see what the links actually produced.

I feel that the following statements you made were unnecessary:

my comments deleted

I understand your frustration but personal acts contribute nothing and frequently end up in a pissing contest that others feel they must join. I appreciate your concern about the "Remington content" at Wikipedia and maybe your concerns will be addressed by some one of the SCORRS members and the content will be expanded.

I hope this answers your question. If not please let me know.

Bull Schmitt

He also thanked me for deleting the passages he cited.

I'm curious about this Whitney Second Model now...

[W. Cyrus Tolman]

Well, proving I can't let go of things.  Here's what I have discovered.

1. The reason that the Remington looks like the Whiney Second Model is because they were designed by the same man, Fordyce Beals.  The hsitory of this gun is here:

http://www.texasranger.org/dispatch/17/pages/Whitney_Revolver.htm

2. Fordyce Beals was hired by Remington.  The result was what we call the "1858" or the "New Model Army."   What was unique (and patented) was "Improvment in Rammer Connection in Revolving Firearms" and "Improvments in Securing the Base Pins of Revolving Firearms."

Sometime around 1856, with the hiring of Fordyce Beals, E. Remington & Sons began producing a percussion .31 cal pocket pistol called the Remington-Beals 1st Model Pocket Revolver, followed by the Remington-Beals 2nd Model Pocket, and the Remington-Beals 3rd Model Pocket Revolver.

http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/journals/PasteboardBoxes
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/gallery/Patent_37329
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/gallery/Patent_37921

3. The most succint version I found:

The first Remington revolver of 1857 was a model designed by Fordyce Beal. It was a pocket weapon for civilians. Beal's larger design, a Remington model 1861, had a new type of loading lever and cylinder pin. It was a .44 caliber intended for the U.S. Army. They also manufactured a similar revolver in a .36 caliber for the U.S. Navy.

You can find it here by searching on the name "Beal"

http://www.members.aol.com/avtopaz/aug99nl.htm

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Howdy,

I have personally owned two Civil War vintage New Model Army .44 revolvers.  Both had brass trigger guards.