Pistol paper cartridge question

[US Scout]

Does anyone know how many grains of powder were in the manufactured paper cartridges for the .44 cal and .36 cal revolvers? 

Much obliged.

US Scout

[French Jack]

I think you will find that the 44's will work with 25 to 30 gr. FFFG, and the 36's with 18 to 25 gr.  The chamber length will dictate the exact amount.  The paper cylinder is close to the same length, just differs in diameter, and the charge is quite forgiving, as the tail or excess is folded over.  Simply adjust the amount of powder to arrive at the correct length for your chamber.

There are also two methods of attaching the ball,or bullet whichever is desired, either fold the paper over the entire projectile and glue the fold, or glue to the projectile, leaving a portion of the lead exposed.  If you use nitrated paper, you can use a slightly heavier paper, as it will not need to burst when rammed home in the chamber.

Some of the old Lyman loading manuals and cast bullet manuals gave directions for making them.

[US Scout]

French Jack,

Thanks.  I know what will work (been shooting them for over 30 years), but I need to know what was the actual powder measurement in the manufactured cartridges. 

[O.T. Buchannan]

U.S. Scout, the official military charge for the .44 Colt Army was 28grs., but whether this was also the charge in the paper cartridges, I'm not totally sure, but I can find out.  For some reason, I think it was, but I will check on it, and I will have an answer for you tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it.

For my 1860s, I use 30grs.  I MIGHT get a chance to fire my Avenging Angel for the first time this weekend, and I'm planning on using 30grs. for that as well (it's also an 1860).

[US Scout]

OT-

Much obliged.  I was thinking the official military load was 28 grains but haven't been able to put my hands on anything that says so, let alone is authoritative.

Appreciate any help you can provide.

I use 30 grains myself, but I've been asked what the official load was, and after no success in looking though my library, I came to the forum for the answer.

[Major 2]

I used to make my own ...boy my memories  I have not done it in years.

I used Cigarette rolling papers I trimmed diagonally to size, filled with 24-25 Grains because the conical bullet took a tad more room.
I had dowel ,I formed the tube on by hand.
I used bee's wax as the glue , the bullets were already lubed in Bee's wax and tallow so just a shallow dip in melted wax with a little artist paint brush and applied around the paper with the bullet in place.

Dixie Gun Works has/had a method to nitrate the papers in your oven.

It's not quite what you asked... but that's how I did it anyway.

[O.T. Buchannan]

U.S. Scout, I've read of the 28gr. figure for the .44 caliber revolvers used in the Civil War, and I've used that figure for many years.  There are a couple of books which may verify that load, but I'm unable to find them.  I'm HOPING that I will be able to find them later (packed away somewhere). 

The only place I can tell you for sure it is listed, is in the back of the Dixie Gun Works catalog....which lists official powder charges for the weapons of the Civil War.

As soon as I find another source, I will let you know. 

[Black River Smith]

Can't say it represents the original volumes but as OTB stated Dixie indicates 15grs for 44's and 12grs for 36's.  While this is not an official source (dissected original) it is close to what I remember reading in articles.  Just can not find the source of these articles.   

[French Jack]

An antique Lyman's that I possess states that the charges for a .36 are 18 to 25 gr. FFg or FFFG, depending on whether ball or conical is used.  The charges for a .44 are 20 to 30 gr. of FFG or FFFG, also depending on whether ball or conical is used.

[US Scout]

Yes, I understand what a .44 or .36 can be shot with and appreciate the suggestions being provided that but that is not the information I need.  I shoot percussion revolvers and know what is needed for an effective load.  I shoot RB and I'm not particularly interested in making paper cartridges, but I'm in search of some historical information.

What I need to know is what was the OFFICIAL ARMY LOAD. 

I know the Army ordered ammunition by the wagonload, so there must have been a specific amount of powder they wanted in their paper cartridges.  Knowing the Army and their quest for economy at that time, they would probably have been adverse to paying for more powder than they thought they needed, so used what they considered the most efficient without being wasteful.  My question is what amount of powder did they require ammunition manufacturers use in the production of paper cartridges.

   

[River City John]

I've managed to find all kinds of collector's packets of unopened combustible cartridges on websites, but none of them show powder charge, just manufacturer and caliber size. Will keep looking.

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   According to Guns of the Western Indian War by R.S. Dorsey, the standard ordinance cartridge contained 30 gr. powder and a 216 gr. conical, or roundball. He also indicates that the cartridges varied from 17gr. to 30gr. of powder, and 212gr. to 260gr. for the conicals.
   I can't recall what other sources i've seen, but I can rummage further, if you like.

   Be Well!

              M.T.Marfield
                12-20-06

[US Scout]

   Greetings!

   According to Guns of the Western Indian War by R.S. Dorsey, the standard ordinance cartridge contained 30 gr. powder and a 216 gr. conical, or roundball. He also indicates that the cartridges varied from 17gr. to 30gr. of powder, and 212gr. to 260gr. for the conicals.
   I can't recall what other sources i've seen, but I can rummage further, if you like.

   Be Well!

              M.T.Marfield
                12-20-06

Looks like what I've been looking for.  Many thanks.

[French Jack]

In "Civil War Guns" by William B. Edwards, on pg. 275 is a copy of a letter from Capt. Dyer, at Springfield Armory to Gen. Ripley.  The date of the letter is 1862, and refers to testing revolvers for performance and overall function before letting a contract to purchase them.  The charge for 44's is stated as 24 gr. powder, and a 218 gr. conical.  This is presumed to be a "standard" loading, duplicating the load for Colt's, and used in various other revolvers.  There was wide variance in loading from one contractor to another, and as most ammunition was ordered from various manufacturers at the time, it will be nearly impossible to be more precise. 
Springfield Armory was unable to satisfy the demand for ammunition so consequently various companies produced it under various contracts.  Perhaps a search of some of the contracts let would give more details, or may actually add more confusion.

[US Scout]

French Jack,

That is the letter I remember reading but couldn't track down (doesn't help that most of my books are packed away at the moment).

Many thanks.

[Books OToole]

Well I can tell you all about paper cartridges.  Everything except what you are looking for.

On pages160-162 of United States Martial Pistols & Revolvers, by Gluckman, it describes the cartridges and the loading process, but not the powder charge.

A History of the Colt Revolver by Haven & Belden, contains photographs of the cartridges and their boxes on page 116;  pages 614-624 has all of the patten drawings and description for the various containers for cartridges. Jan. 18, 1859;  but no where that I can find is the powder charge. 

Also in Haven & Belden is an 1865 Colt Advertisement (p.385) stating that the bullets for the Navy weigh in at 50 elongated or 86 round to the pound.  And the Army projectiles are 33 elongated or 48 round to the pound.  Again no powder charge.

Besides paper, some cartridges were made of metal foil or goldbeaters skin.

Books