BP Cartridge Loading

[Sgt. Manse Jolly]

After reading this Forum, I am becoming more interested in maybe loading my cartridge revolver with BP loads for shooting. I have read a lot of info from you guys, but maybe need a little more help.

Do you guys have some links to reloading for BP loads? I shoot a NM Vaquero in .357 mag, and would like to use BP loads. It sounds easy, but I know there are basic rules to follow. Good links would be very much appreciated.

[litl rooster]

  Welcome to the Darkside.........There's plenty of info here The one true powder and subs both. You might start in the Dark Arts link. Don't fret loading your loads is pretty easy and you van get alot of good advise here.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Welcome, Sgt. Jolly!

By all means, read up and go to those sites.  Then, after it's all boiled down, if you use REAL Black Powder (the substitute BPs can sometimes have different rules) you pour enough 3f or 2f powder in the case so that when you seat the bullet, it compresses the powder from 1/16th" to 1/8th" - crimp firmly and load and fire.  Throw your fired cases into a Tupperware (or similar) container with either plain water or with a small bit of dish soap within 1-4 hours of being fired; use a a good BP cleaner like Ballistol (or my favorite Hoppes #9 Plus  BP cleaner) to clean the gun(s), then start the process all over!  Pretty simple, eh!?!

You'll end up sooty, somewhat stinky (at least yer hands), and you won't be able to rip the grin off yer mug with a team of draft horses or mules!!!!!

Welcome to the Darkside !

PS - ignore the naysayers - BP gun clean-up, while messier, can be easier and faster than cleanup after a good day shootin' smokeyless rounds - an' ya won't have to worry 'bout leading.

PPS (PSS?) -  REMEMBER what ol' Uncle Steel Horse tells ya:  whenever shooting BP, use ONLY  soft lead bullets.  (Hard-cast waxy lubed bullets CAN be used, but wait 'til you know more about BP and the important lubes needed.)

[Sgt. Manse Jolly]

Thanks for all the help guys, from reading many of the past postings, I knew you would be able to point me in the right direction! I really like reading up on anything before I do it so I won't make mistakes and with the links, I can print the information and read while I am in hotels (I travel a LOT).

To me, being authentic at what I do, and CAS is the same, I want to be close as possible to what was used in the 1870-1890 time frame. Shooting real Black Powder is the only way to go! My concern was the compacting of the BP cartridge. I was not sure how much was required. I thought is would be a simple process since the gunsmiths in all towns probably reloaded shells as part of thier business.

Again, thanks guys and I will read the links.

[Adirondack Jack]

To get to the heart of it, for pistol caliber straight cases like yer .38 super long , ya just dump enough in the case so the bullet will push it down a little bit (1/16 is good enough) find or make ya a scoop to dispense that amount, and yer ready to rock.  You simply cannot put too much in (if the bullet fits it fits, and aslong as the bullet base at least touches the charge, ya can't hurt anything (though a little compression is best).

Only important thing with the real powder is lube.  Plenty of it and the right kind.  DD's BIG LUBE bullets are a good way to go.

Easy enough that millions of folks who never got any book learnin' did it without killin' themselves

Have fun.

[Wills Point Pete]

 You must also decide if your ammo with The Holy Black is to be shot only with revolvers or used with rifles or carbines, too. With handgun ammo just about any bullet cast soft with BP lube will do for a few gunfulls to all day. Throw the extra barrel length of a shoulder gun in and we need either the Big Lube Boolet or a grease cookie under the bullet. Since I shoot the same ammo for both rifles and pistols I use either a Big Lube or a grease cookie, depending on my finances. I don't yet cast a Big Lube so when I use my home cast bullets I use a grease cookie.
Here is the formula for that grease cookie....

Melt some beeswax in a double boiler, do not use Mama's favorite, buy one at the thrift store. Pour the melted beeswax onto some wax paper on a cookie sheet orpour it into a pan of hot water. When the wax dries look how thick it is, we want it about a tenthh to an eighth of an inch thick. If you pour it into hot water make suer it is dry as a bone before the next step. I like the hot water method myself, I just pour some into the big pan o' the double boiler.  If your layer is too thin, remelt and pour a little more, if too thick, tear a hunk off and remelt in the big pan. It doesn't take long to figure it out. Some folks like to use a microwave to melt their beeswax, after an unfortunate happening I am no longer alowed to. Just thinking about my wife's reaction gives me nightmares for a week.

Once you have your sheet o' beeswax then charge your cases, leave room for the grease cookie. Take the sheet of wax and, using the charged case like a backwards cookie cutter, press it over the case. You now have a water and lube proof wad. Use a pencil, piece of dowell or something else round and flat to push that wax wad down to the powder and then put a little bit of BP lube in. I just scoop some out of my container with a flat screwdriver blade, the bigger the bore and longer the barrel, the bigger the screwdriver blade. The .357 does not seem to need a real big blade, probably because the beeswax acts as bullet lube too.

I then top it off with an .030 crd wad, I'm too lazy to make my own, I use Walters Wads. There are those who say the top wad is unneeded, that the rotation of the bullet spins the grease cookie off the base of the bullet. the feller that taught me the way of the grease cookie insisted the card wad is important and so I just haven't gotten around to testing it.

The grease cookie gives you a lot of latitude, I've used those Speer and Hornady swaged lead bullets in my carbine with BP because I din't have any soft cast bullets, over a grease cookie they worked fine. If you bore and chambers are fairly close to standard you can melt the crayon luve out of any old hardcast bullets on a cokkie sheet and paper towels, about 200 degrees will do that.The skinny grease grooves hold enough lube for a couple three gunfulls of pan lubed with BP lube or all day with the grease cookie. Want a close range BP small game and pest load? Load the Speer or Hornady swaged lead SWC-HP over a grease cookie and as much of The Holy Black as you can stuff into the case. Yes, those soft lead hollowpoints expand at BP velocities and they exit a coyote, at least broadside.

A pure beeswad at the bottom of the grease cooke keeps the lube from melting and spoiling the powder charge during a Texas summer day.

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Just to be a little technical about terms, as I recall from Ordnance School many years ago, your propellant does not "detonate" in your firearm, it "deflagrates" or burns rapidly.  Just a technicality of terms that probably belongs in the "Pet Peeves" thread.
BB
 

[Delmonico]

No, another misused term.  I didn't know the proper term, you used, but if I understand right, black powder does not detonate, classifying it as a low explosive.  Nitro powders can be made to detonate in a gun, but only once per gun because this takes it far beyond a regular blow up.

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Yep, Mr. Delmonico gets a cigar!
You can get a mechanical explosion when a container fails from high pressure.  Still not a true detonation.  You get a detonation when you cause a shockwave.  Or so the Marine Corps taught me.  Powder manufacturers do their best to make products that won't normally do this, hence they are "propellants".  It's been over 25 years since I took a class so I won't go to deeper.  Lets just say I have all my fingers.
BB 

[Delmonico]

I have had some college level chemistry couses and accually paid attention, cause of the knowledge that can help in both cooking and internal ballistics.   Also have spent some hours picking the brains of some demolition type folks, just fer fun.  Beat-A-triss Bandit, did they teach you how to blow up things with bannans.   Had that one explained by two different folks who had been trained in improvissed explosives.

[Arcey]

Just after 9-11 the groceries around here stopped carrying lighter fluid.  Pissed me off. I asked a manager of one if she had any idea of what I could make the building look like with the other stuff she had on the shelves..............

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Ah Mr. Delmonico, I'm not in that field anymore.  I manage training for some of the fine people who defend us.  I'm more interesting in reloading and barreling Garands and overhauling my latest damaged Husqavarna double hammer 16, which will debut in January.  She's going to get my first BP shotshell reloads thanks to the tutelage of all you mentors here.

[Delmonico]

They frown on that anymore anyway.  Bet Grandpa would get in trouble fer teaching me to split big chunks of wood with Giant Powder if he did it today.   I could only watch till I was about 18.

He also told me about the sugar trick.

[Be-A-triss Bandit]

Oh, they frown on anything anymore.  Besides, today some people don't have the common sense of a turkey in August.  I won't be surprised to see black powder licensed and then banned leaving just subs.  After all "they" will argue, why do you need BP when you have the subs?  "It just smells right, ma'm" won't impress Nancy P.
The thing is you can load black powder safely and effectively with a knowledge of the kinks.  I'm still working on the effectively and always learning new kinks.

[Sgt. Manse Jolly]

Guys, I apoligize for so many questions, but after reading all the links provided, loading cases with BP seems straight forward, but I have one question you may be able to help me with.......

I know I need to use soft cast bullets, but what type lube should I request for the bullets? In my .357 NM Vaquesro smokeless powder loads, I use hard cast with regular lube and they are fine. I have been using "shurshot" bullets for smokeless. Who would be a good vendor for BP Bullets and what weight would you recommend?

I appreciate all your help. This Forum, and you guys, is the best place I have found for BP shooting!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Sgt Jolly,

One of the best BP lubes is is SPG.  There are more, however.  You can buy cast bullets with SPG or other lubes from the factory.  BEWARE, however.  For instance, Meister sells bullets lubed with SPG at a very fair price.  (The shipping is what really hurts!)  However, the Meister projectiles are STILL hard-cast.  Bad ... bad.  Unless ye rshootin' smokeyless powder, since all BP lubes work as well for smokey-less powder as they do for BP.  Lyman is another one with BP lube but hard bullets.  As I say, watch out.  Check Cabellas and others.  They do sell good, soft bullets lubed with SPG, or a gold colored BP lube.

I won't even get into the home-brewed lubes, but if you go that way, start looking around for sources of Beeswax and your grocery sells Extra Virgin Olive Oil, which are 2 of the more common ingredients in homemade lubes. 

Adios! and have fun!   

[Cuts Crooked]

I don' usually get into recommending products but a freind recently introduced me to DGL lube for BP cartridges and it's one of the best I've ever found "over the counter! Check here: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=689293

[Silas McFee]

Howdy Sgt Jolly, and welcome to the Darkside.

There's a lot of wisdom above, and it's worth looking at carefully.  The two things that I want to impart to you are that first, loading BP cartridge and maintaining BP cartridge guns is not hard.  Been around for a long time, and it's both easy and simple to deal with.  Second, within reason, the issue with lube is less about the type (just not really hard wax lube), but more about the volume.  You want a bullet design that carries a lot of lube so you don't need to swab out bores between stages or halfway through a match.

Disclosure: Dick Dastardly is my father in-law, so I am very partial to the molds and products he sells.  That said, there are countless homemade BP lube recipes, and some of them are so cheap that you could shoot for years on $20 worth of lube.  The key is the quantity of lube that bullet sends down the barrel.  My "litmus" test is if the muzzle of my RIFLE is still greasy with lube.  If it is, everything is working fine.  We routinely shoot >120 rounds through our 92's without any cleaning, or any detectable loss of accuracy and function.

Good luck, and keep us up to date on your results.

Best regards,
Silas

[Dick Dastardly]

Mornin' Sgt. Jolly,

A pard, named Snakebite, designed a bullet for exactly your mission.  His mission specific projectile is named after himself.  It's called the Snakebite Greasewagon.  This bullet carries five times the lube of the nearest competitor.  It has a looong ogive and a nice flat metplat.  The end result is a great bp bullet that loads easily in a 38 Special case yet ends up with an OAL the same as 357 Magnum.

38 Special range brass is so cheep that many consider it a one time use item.  It works great in your guns, I have a brace of .357Mag RVs, and it also works great in .357 Magnum rifles.

To load 38 Special brass for your guns, simply size/de-prime, prime, dump in enough FFFg Holy Black that the bullet will compress it about 1/8" when it's seated, and seat the bullet.  Presto, .357 Magnum length ammo that will run thru any .357 Magnum factory spec gun slicker 'n snot.  Now, with all that lube, your fouling problems are over.

For more information, send me an emule with more specific information.  Glad to be of help.

rrhody@spwl.net

DD-DLoS

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Black Powder does not burn as efficiently as Smokeless powder. The smoke is actually tiny particles of unburned, or partially burned combustion products. These particles generally get blasted out of the barrel as smoke, but a very significant amount of the particles get deposited in the bore as fouling. Smokeless powder burns much more efficiently than Black Powder, with far less unburned particles. More of the powder is converted directly into expanding exhaust gasses. The result is that with Black Powder fouling builds up in the rifling very quickly, and it quickly turns into a dry, hard mass that is difficult to remove and destroys accuracy.

Most Smokeless lubes are some form or other of a relatively hard waxy substance. Sometimes we refer to them as 'crayon' lubes because that is about the consistancy. The only function of a lube with Smokeless powder is to lubricate the bullet as it slides down the barrel, reducing friction. The bore is relatively clean after every shot, and the fouling never builds up enough to seriously affect accuarcy. So a little bit of friction reduction is all that is required of a Smokeless lube.

But a BP lube must perform two functions. It must lubricate the bullet, just like a Smokeless lube does, as the bullet runs down the barrel. But the second function of a good BP lube is to impart moisture to the fouling in the bore. By using a lube that keeps the fouling moist, it never dries out and hardens. If it is kept soft and moist, each succeeding bullet will wipe out most of the fouling left behind by the preceeding bullet, and accuracy can be maintained.

When I say 'moist' I don't specifically mean water. A good BP lube will be a soft, gooey, waxy substance. A good gooey BP lube will keep the fouling in the barrel soft and gooey, not allowing it to harden and ruing accuracy. But a Smokeless lube is useless in this application. Using just Smokeless lube, BP fouling rapidly turns hard caked and ruins accuracy. In addition it gets very difficult to remove at cleaning time.

Some good commercial lubes are Bore Butter and SPG. I use SPG all the time. You can also make a good BP lube at home. There are many recipes. I used to melt up Crisco and Bees Wax in about a 50/50 mix and this was an excellent BP lube. It was soft and gooey, and it kept the fouling in the bore moist, for follow up shots.