Black Powder Measurements

[Noz]

I have read the threads that say that black powder can be measured by both scale and volumetric methods and that a grain of  black powder is a grain of black powder which ever way you choose to measure it.
I got my scale and volume measure out to prove to myself whether this is true or not.
NOT.
On my scale, 1 grain (Volume) of GOEX FFFg weighs .8 grains.
This proportion hold true up to 100 grains (V) weighs 80 grains. I did not take it any further.
The danger inherent in this confusion is when a weighed charge of black is given to someone using a volume measurement. The individual using the volume measurement is obviously going to have an overcharge in his gun.
My black powder training began in 1953 and I was always told that black had to be measured by volume only and that all load charts were based on those numbers. Scales were never to be used.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Noz,

For SASS main match guns, use either.  You won't overcharge them.  The small difference won't matter with cartridge guns and you will be using volumetric measurements for your C&B guns.

Most black powder loads were based on a compressed powder charge.  That's all the black powder you can get into the case and still seat the bullet.  So volume or weight, it won't matter cuz you can't overcharge the case and still seat the bullet.  There would be a bigger problem from undercharging the case and leaving an air space.

Where it could make a difference would be a very weak old gun that was made for very light charges.  In that case too much Holy Black could destroy the gun.

None of the above applies to sub/replica powders.  They are in a class of their own.  I don't load 'em and won't address them here.

With any luck, Cuts will jump in here.  He has some fine advice on this subject.

DD-DLoS

[Howdy Doody]

Noz,
Loading BP usually calls for no air space and for long range even some compression before adding a bullet onto the charge. Everything about BP seems to have quirks, but it is danged hard to build up to dangerous head pressures is you are the least bit careful.
BP subs are different, especially 777. It was designed for hunting and to use the same amount as you would for an application of BP or the other subs will give you a surprising increase in everything, muzzle flip, recoil, velocity, etc.
As DD notes things for CAS and BPCR have a lot of differences. Loading for a compression of 1/16 - 1/8 of inch compression with bullet is the most widely used formula. No need to even measure with that formula, I don't. I just set powder measure to drop to the desired bullet compression and load on up. To even know about what load I have going, I would have to dump a case of powder dropped from the measure into one of the volume measure and see how many grains by volume I actually have going. The Lee CC dippers take care of volume very well if you don't load with a measure. I use them all the time when I shoot C&B. I preload the charge into loading tubes and stick a ball into the top of tube. When at a shoot I simply work the ball out with my thumb and pour the charge into the chamber, add a wad and then ram the ball.
I used to shoot a lot of cowboy silhouettes and used 777 for that purpose. I found that I had my best luck with weighing each charge for that purpose. I did have the opportunity to shoot over a chrono and found that my loads had a very narrow spread with the 38-55 that I used for that type of shooting. I know some of the folks loaded less than 15gr in 38 brass and it turned into a smoke rule. 777 is funny stuff, because they used no filler and loaded like you would smokeless with mag primers, but it was a BP sub.
So you can actually say you can do your loading either way, volume or weight, just so long as it works and except for 777, you will not get into any trouble so long as you end up with no air space on top of the charge after seating the bullet.
I would like to refer you to an article you might enjoy, written by the person I consider the father of BP shooting in CAS, since it was he that introduced it to SASS way back when, Rowdy Yates. He shares his knowledge with all and has been a person mentor for me, since we shoot together often.
http://brimstonepistoleros.com/Articles/Weightvsvolume.html

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

With all due respect to your obviously much greater experience with Black Powder than mine, I am a relative newcomer and only started shooting BP in 1968, I am curious just what kind of measure you used to measure make your 'volume' BP measurements.

When I was a kid fooling around with C&B revolvers, I used the same kind of BP measure or flask everyone else did. I used either a Civil War type flask, with removeable threaded spouts, or a measure with a sliding piece that was graduated and marked off in 10 grain increments. But there was no industry standard in existance that I was aware of that standardized a 'grain/volume'.

The flask I had, had removeable threaded spouts. In use you would place your thumb over the opening, open the valve, and turn the flask upside down to measure out the volume of powder. The adjustable measure with the sliding, graduated piece was simpler. You set it to how many grains you wanted, then poured powder out of your flask and into the measure. Then you closed the hinged funnel top to the thing, levelling off the charge.

Now I double dog guarantee you that somewhere in the basement of the company that manufactured those things, they had a cup full of powder and a scale. And the first prototype they made, before they sent the measurements up to the shop to be duplicated, the guy in charge weighed out exactly 30 grains, or 40 grains, or XX grains of powder, and put it in the prototype measure, and made a mark where XX many grains filled up the measure to. Then he dumped out the powder, and cut or filed the measure down to the level where his mark was. Same with the measure with the sliding scale, except this was easier. They had an unlabelled sliding piece. The guy weighed out XX grains of powder, and poured it into the measure. Then he adjusted the measure and slid it up until XX grains was right at the top. Then he made a mark. Same for 30 grains, 40 grains, what have you.

Then they sent the prototypes up to the shop and told them to make 10,000 of them. But the thing was based on the fact that they determined a particular volume would measure out by volume XX number of grains by weight.

I dunno why you are getting a 20% error. I can tell you that when I measure out 2.2CC of Goex FFg it weighs 34.5 grains and when I measure out 2.2CC of Elephant FFg, it weighs 37.5 grains. That's about an 11% variation in weight right there between two different brands of BP. I do know that whatever brand, lot, and graduation of powder was in the cup when they were measuring out their powder to make the prototype, all bets were off if a different brand of powder were loaded into the thing.

I can also tell you that back when I was a kid shooting my C&B pistol I was wandering around the woods, loading in the field, so the reason I didn't use a scale was because it was a little bit inconvenient to carry one with me and find a tree stump that was level enough to use it. The volumetric measures were simply more convenient, but there was nothing said you could not use a scale.

However, bearing in mind what I just said about the variation of powder weights from brand to brand, weighing out exactly 35.4 grains of Elephant, would leave my 45 Colt rounds with considerably less powder in them than 34.5 grains of Goex. Maybe not even enough for the proper amount of compression. That's why you don't weigh out BP, because of the inconsitancy of weight from brand to brand, and even lot to lot within the same brand. If you are using one brand and granulation, it is just simpler to measure it out by volume. But you can bet your bottom dollar that many guys in the BPCR world weigh out every charge, right down to the .1 grain. But they weigh it once they have qualified a particular brand, granulation, and lot of powder. Once they buy a new lot, they start all over again to qualify the new lot as to exactly how many grains, by weight, of powder they put in.

[Adirondack Jack]

Driftwood, I too see a "light volume" issue with recent volumentric "muzzle loading" measures.

I bought one of the handy dandy adjustable measures that came complete with a swivelling spout to cut off a charge level as well as charge a gun (or cartridge) and it is graduated in 5 grain increments, has a neat little O ring seal, locking ring, etc. All appears well made, etc.  I put a "65 grain" charge in the thing, dumped it in my known to be good beam scale and got a whopping 53 grains.  This with GOEX FFG.

Me thniks,just as LEE has notoriously uinder-counted on their powder charts for their bushing used for smokeless measures, (ya always get a light charge if ya use the Lee chart) some makers of these BP measures may have become infected by lawyeritis.  A legal beagle might say "if a "70 grain" marking is really only 65 grains, the idiot on the end of the measure would really have to TRY HARD to overcharge his gun.  at least that's my theory.

[Howdy Doody]

Driftwood, to answer your question, actually AJ did. I have one of those handy dandy volumetric thingamabobs like he has and you too I guess. I saw it hangin' there near the register when I was checkin' out of the toystore and threw it in the cart. I suppose it is all relative and measurement will vary by weight vs volume depending on the brand and texture powder, ie fffg, ffg. cannon or whatever. I think of measurements as a way to get back to a load I really like is about all I can say about that.
I had been shootin' a lot of Cleanshot/APP and I found that I would occasionally come up light on charge due to powder bridging in the flask. I never noticed until I hit the line and then I would get a mousephart type shot out of a chamber. It was Oaktown Rider, a gent that gave up the sport, that turned me on to the loading tubes. That is what I have used for a few years. They are nothing more than vinyl CB antenna tips for the fiberglass antennas like on trucks. I load them out with a Lee scoop at home before I head out to a shoot. I get even shots every time.
There has to be a million ways to shoot BP and I know you guys are like me and I have no secrets. I always open myself to ridicule (see alias). You just have to try things and find out which way you like best. Volume, by cutting a case to size and adding a handle, cutting or adding a funnel to your flask or ??
For loading cartridge I use a XL650 press and just set my measure to fill the case and leave myself 1/8" of compression with true BP or with Goex Pinnacle I fill to where the boolit just kisses the powder.
Drifty, BTW I shot my first BP shot way on back in... I will guess it was mid '50s. Actually my dad and uncle had a flintlock and would load it and shoot it at our place in New Ipswich N.H. when I was a tyke and let me have a try at it. Then there was a longgggg spell before I tried the holy stuff again, like until about 6 or 7 yrs ago.Kinda like a 50 year spread, oh my, I am gettin' to dang old. So, I give you the nod for experience pard.

[Noz]

I have three different "black powder measures". One measures from 30 to 100 grains, one measures from 5 to 50 grains and one measures 35 grains. They all agree that 35 grains in the fixed measure is 35 grains in the 5-50 measure and 35 grains in the 30 to 100 measure.
35 grains from each of them weighs 28 grains.
My point in all of this is that if a measurement of powder is given it should be noted whether it is by volume or by weight.

I am the first member of my family in several generations that has had any interest whatsoever in guns and hunting. Everything I have learned, I learned from my own experience. I had no family member to teach me. My first gun was an 1836 musket that had been converted from a flinter to a cap gun. I measured my powder by pouring it into the palm of my hand until it looked right. I wadded up a plastic package of BBs until they would go into the 60 something caliber barrel, rammed them home, put a musket cap on and let'er fly. Cotton tails became a mist within 15 yards or so and jack rabbits died on the spot. When I got old enough to realize what I was doing, it scared me badly.  An old gun, a whole lot of powder and a heavy shot load is a recipe for disaster.  I got away with it but I don't know how. Guardian Angel?

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho Noz,

I think yer angel was grinnin' about the way ya kilt 'em critters.  I'm sure he could remember bein' a boy once hisself.  Angels kin have fun too.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

Bottom line is, with CARTRIDGE guns or cap and ball revolvers, it is nearly impossible to get into trouble with BP or subs as long as ya maintain at least 100% charge density, and in the instance of 777 not too much compression.  Unlike a front stuffer, ya simply haven't got room enough to put "too much" in.

[john boy]

NozzleRag - here is Capt Baylor's volumetric comparison chart for BP and substitutes ... http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
Is a good reference source.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Went to the bench and checked my 25 year old muzzleloading powder measure.  It was set for 63 grains, one of my 45-70 loads.

Tried it with GOEX FF, and the result weighed 61 grains.
Then i tried CARTRIDGE, and the result weighed 63.5 grains.

I determine, and reproduce loads by volume, but i use a scale to check-weigh.

[john boy]

Scales were never to be used

NozzleRag ... Naw!  No two vendors produce BP with the same density for each of their granulation's of powder.
A volume measure of X's powder will be the same for a volume measure of Y's powder.
You can then take the X and Y powder, throw it on a scale and the weights will be different ... BUT:
You can take a volume measure of powder and determine a scale weight grain equivalent and use that scale weight for your charge for any vendor's powder.

For example, Swiss powder will weigh 10 - 12% more than Goex powder but their volume measurements will be the same