J/P 200 Big Lube bullet for Cowboy .45 Special (might be a good pair)

[Adirondack Jack]

Got around to sizing and lubing the sample Johnson/Peterson .45 200 gr BIG LUBE bullets I got from DD tonight.

First observation,   DANG they got a lotta bearing surface for a 200 grainer!  Run through the Lyman luber/sizer, they end up "cut" well up past the crimp groove, creating a very long, stability inducing bearing surface.

Second observation,  WOW them BIG LUBE bullets swallow up the lube.  I happened to have "Orange Magic" lube from Lyman in the luber, so I cranked that into the big waller on the sides of them bullets, and I do mean CRANKED!  Took a fairly healthy turn of the ratchet for each one.  Now, I planned on loading em with 777 FFG, so a LOT of lube is not really a big concern, but I have found the Orange Magic stuff works good with 777 or smokeless, and until I use it up, that's what's in the sizer.

Loaded up 12 rounds with 13.2 grains of 777 FFG (weight), which is an 18 grain VOLUME load, and with the 15% adjustment for extra whoopass of 777, should run just about like 20-22 grains of FFG BP.  The charge of 777 fills the cowboy .45 Special case to within about .150 of the top, so loading the 200 grain J/P bullet to a 1.183 OAL, gives a healthy .150 or so powder compression, making for a nice, warm, happy, happy burn that should give nice case seal and obduration, yet nicely manageable recoil and velocity in the low 700 FPS range from the 5.5 inch Rugers.

I like the long bearing surface, the "bulky" RNFP nose shape feeds slicker than frog snot in the Spur Short Stroked Marlin, and I fully expect the range report to be a good one.

Now, I'm waiting patiently for the  EPP/UG .45 160 mould, which ought to be a real honey, but in the mean time, for those liking a bit more boom and the feel of a LITTLE recoil, the 200 J/P and the Cowboy .45 Special might be just the ticket.  Stay tuned.

[Wills Point Pete]

 I am following this saga with some interest, mainly because I am always interested in experimentation.
Thing is, both my revolvers shoot dead on with the 250 grain bullets, heavier shoot higher, lighter shoot lower, as normal. Still the timer has to drag a grandfather clock all over the range to keep my time so I don't much worry about low recoil but just try to keep in practice with real loads. So, I'll cheer you from the sidelines, shoot my soot hog loads and as soon as a .45 shooter gets to the top half of the rankings I shall steer him, or her, your way.

[Adirondack Jack]

WPP, my guns shot dead on with 250s as well, and until I started using the shorter cases, I couldn't get lighter bullets to group worth beans if I slowed em down enough to make em shoot halfway to POA.  I enjoy the 250s at times, but I also enjoy the 200s or lighter when they shoot close to POA (unfiled sights) and group well.  When stuff works, it's fun, even for me, and I AM the MIDDLE of the pack (got the middle shooter prize,a slick new rig, at NYS shoot last month).  Most of that shoot was 200s in pistols, 250s in the rifle, till I got em mixed up, and did the opposite, but it didn't matter, they all ran real good.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy AJ,

For some reason, the J/P-45 200 grain bullet just looks rite in the new 45 Cowboy Special brass.  Yup, it'll kick a mite more than the EPP-UG, but it will definately feed easy.

The new molds are on order.  Dang, waitin' wears on me.  I ordered enuf EPP-UG 45 Cal molds to make them a standard stock item.  There goes another chunk of my 401K.  Oh heck, I wanted to work another year anyway. . . .

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

DD, I agree, the J/P 200 looks like it was made for the Cowboy .45 Special.

So, how did it shoot?  FANTASTIC!

Loaded 5 in the Ruger 5.5inch Vaquero, and let em fly over the screens into a carefully hand selected test media (Empty cardboard coffee cup), taking careful aim at the lettering on the cup at oh, 7 yards according to the eyeball laser.  (this is strict scientific measuring, huh?).  Shot the individual1/2inch letters at will, dead nuts to POA (unfiled sights)  and returned chrony data of right around 700 FPS, give or take 10 fps.

Loaded five into the Spur short stroked Marlin, and repeated the exercize,using the other side of the aforementioned cup.  Same deal on accuracy, ran em all into one hole, AAMOF the hole was only about 3/4 inch diameter for five rounds at that close distance.  Chrony readings out of the 24 inch pipe came back at 905 fps +- FIVE fps.

Now ya'll do the math.  A 200 at 700 is a puffball to shoot, and 900 fps outta the rifle is recoil almost like a .22.

So, what about pressures?  The 13.2grain (weight) load of 777 FFG gave plenty enough pressure, even at these modest velocities, to give decent case seal, which means guns should run all day.

Have a look:



Note the powder stains are limited to the level of the bullet base, indicating the cases expand before the bullet moves, and ya only get a little leakage back around the front half of the case.

#1 was fired out of the Marlin, with it's usual generous chambers.  #2 was fired in the Ruger.

I guess I'm gonna need to get me one of these J/P 45/200 BIG LUBE bullet molds.  It's workin' purty good.

[Driftwood Johnson]

AJ:

The J/P 45-200 was originally conceived as a 200 grain alternative to the PRS 250 grain bullet for 45 Colt, for slightly less recoil in a revolver than the 250 grain PRS. Part of the process of loosing 20% of the mass, while maintaining the sizeable lube groove, meant that there was much less bullet length behind the crimp groove. This meant the bullet did not protrude into a loaded case as much as the PRS, which in turn meant that there was actually more case capacity in any case the J/P 45-200 was seated in vs the PRS. Without fillers, that actually meant more powder, rather than less.

A second, but slightly less known design goal was to find a nice light load in 45 Schofield cases, for lightly built revolvers, like some of the older Italian 1858 Remington clones. With the J/P 45-200 in a Schofield case, there is room for about 26 or 28 grains of FFg. Interestingly enough, this almost exactly duplicates the bullet weight and powder charge of the 44 Henry Flat. In my 1858 Remmies, fitted with R&D conversion cylinders, the Schofield round loaded with the J/P 45-200 is the cat's pajamas, resulting in a very pleasant shooting round.

Somewhere along the way, the original configuration of the J/P 45-200 changed to what it is today. I'm not exactly sure how that happened. Here is a photo showing the original 'squat' configuration of the bullet. For reference, the original J/P 45-200 is shown, left to right, as cast, lubed, loaded into a Schofield case, and finally, loaded into a 45 Colt case.



I'm sure with the still further reduced case capacity of the new Cowboy 45 Special case, the J/P 45-200 will prove to be the bee's knees in light BP loads for the 45.

[Adirondack Jack]

Howdy, Driftwood.  My next move will be to load a few with GOEX FFG, at whatever charge it comes out to, just to see how they work, and to compare with the 777 loads I ran today.  I gotta wait until I get the Lyman Orange Magic lube outta the luber though, and get some REAL BP lube in it,so I can properly test them.  I also suspect it will run a VERY close approximation to the nearest "cousin" to the Cowboy .45 Special, the old .45 (not .455) Webley.

In any event, I'm impressed with the J/P design, especially in the Cowboy .45 Special.  I suspect the load I ran today might well become my rifle load for the Spur Short Stroke Marlin, and the soon to be released EPP/UG 160 will likely be my revolver load.  I'm sold on the Big Lube concept, both for grease carrying capacity, and because the designs allow long bearing SPAN, yet low bore resistance.  All that works well for the Cowboy .45 Special loads.

[Cuts Crooked]

With the J/P 45-200 in a Schofield case, there is room for about 26 or 28 grains of FFg. Interestingly enough, this almost exactly duplicates the bullet weight and powder charge of the 44 Henry Flat. .

AJ, now there's a good quote to help sell the idea to NCOWS!!!!!!

[Adirondack Jack]

AJ, now there's a good quote to help sell the idea to NCOWS!!!!!!

I hear ya, but unfortunately, Driftwood was talking about the Schofield case,and not the Cowboy .45 Special.

HOWEVER, since ya brought it up, there is a historically correct precedent, though I'm not sure ya'd find em in every general store in Kansas.  The Webley-Green revolver was adopted for British Foreign Service use and was chambered for a round, made by WRA CO (from the late 1870s until 1931)  This round was also used in .45 COLT SAAs, (which the Brits also bought for the foreign services).  It was called the .45 Webley. Not to be confused with either the rimless .450 webley, or the .455 Colt Eley (aka Webley Mark I) as used in british revolvers,  It was .060 shorter than the Cowboy .45 Special, and used a 225 gr bullet and 20 grains of BP.  The .45 Webley was also the first .452 bullet, and it had a case head exactly  the same as .45 Colt.  Some Cowboy .45 Special shooters are getting good results with exactly the same load.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

Hope y'all don't mind me chirpin' in here.  I'm a die-hard Warthog.  I realize, however, that there are numerous valid reasons for shootin' reduced loads.

I had the distinct pleasure of corresponding with pard Peterson (as in J/P 200 gr. Big Lube {tm} boolit) and he sent me a sample box of J/P 200s to try.  They worked very well in all my 45 Colt weapons - 4 pistolas and 2 rifles.  I loaded them in 45 Colt cases and had (zero) feeding problems from my length-sensitive rifles.  [ 1866 & 1892 clones ]  The bullets fed perfectly thru my revolvers, too!     !!

A big "Thanks" again to Mr. P for sending them to me; to both Mr. Johnson &  Mr. Peterson for their work on this boolit; and to Mr. (Rhody) Dasterdly for gettin' the moulds set up.

Ride easy!  Keep yer powder dry and have fun!
Jeff  "Steel Horse Bailey"

PS - as an NCOWS member (SASS, too) I think I can safely say that while not totally authentic, the 45 J/P  is probably in use.  After all, there are a large number of us shoot 45 Colt thru our rifles - none of which ever existed in 45 Colt back in the day ... I believe that the only prohibited 45 cal. round is the 45 ACP.  However, don't take MY word as gospel.  

[Driftwood Johnson]

AJ

The big dent on its side, and the lack of a visible primer and copper colored case on the 1875? S&W round, third from left, identifies it as a Benet (inside) primed, folded rim case. According to Kuhnhausen anyway, this version was known as the Revolver Ball Cartirdge, Caliber .45, M1875.

[Adirondack Jack]

Driftwood, you are correct , as per usual

I have a few rifle rounds from the same era,that are inside primed as well, including an original military issue .50-70.  It seems that although the Brits had boxer priming as early as 1868 (.450 adams), there was a patent fight which went on a while, and Eley eventually won.  As soon as they had cleared that hurdle, Eley immediately licensed the Boxer priming system, and it came into use in the US as well.  I believe this was rght around 1876 -8,  (going by memory). So The early "central fire" US cartridges before that time were all Benet primed.

[Adirondack Jack]

Update:  I had 6 lonely J/P 200s left, and figured I'd see what a "stout"  BP load looked like for em.

First I had to get em "bp friendly".  Sized em with the Lyman, but didn't lube em,as it is loaded up with Smokeless lube.  Then I gently warmed up the bullets and a hunk of "rich" crisco/beeswax lube (mebbe 60/40, heavy on the crisco), until it was  a stiff paste and the bullets were warm, and used a little wooden spatula to "ice" the grease groove, just like frosting a cake.  Now it is a little slow if ya was doing a bunch, but by simply buttering the lube into the wallow on the J/P 200s, then rolling the bullets on waxed paper, they lubed up just fine.  A quicker and less lube consuming method than pan lubing if ya only need a few

Onward to the reloading bench, and after a bit of eyeballing and weighing, I found that a 20.0 grain charge of GOEX FFG fills the Cowboy .45 Specialcase to within about 1/8 inches from the top, leaving a pretty good 3/16 compression (considering the short powder column in these cases, I think that's quite a bit). Crunched the bullets in, and they'reready for the range.  Report to follow.  I have an idea this load will perform a hair better than the 1CC load DD tried with the same bullets.  The paper will tell

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho AJ,

First of all, thanks for getting a banner on yer posts so pards kin find yer brass.  Second, if ya run low on 'em J/P 45 -200s, me or Mason kin make ya a bunch.

I've found that this bullet likes a bit of punch under it.  When I shot it out of my ROAs with the Kirst Konverter cylinders, I found that I could get a mite more powder under 'em than I could get under a PRS.  They were quick and they were accurate.  I think they like enuf pressure to obturate completely to fill the bore.

FWIW, I shot some at long range, for my pistols, and they never tumbled.  Best I could hold, I kept 'em inside 8" at a hundred yards.

I'm thinkn' I'd like to hear how they flew in a 45 Colt rifle.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

Ho, DD.

Yeah I figgered it was time to pay the frieght for the hospitality here at CAS City.  The marshall is a fine gent.  Set things up right quick like.

I'm not sweating the J/P bullets right now.  I figger when the EPP/UG molds come in, I'll have to spring for one of each

I'll let ya know how the J/Ps  fly.

[Adirondack Jack]

Back from the range.  Mostly did some endurance tests of the Marlin conversion #2 with 777 and a few Goex FFG rounds.  (very good results.  The rifle only began to act up after 75 rounds with zero ablutions, and then only acouple of stovepiped empties.  Gotta increase ejector tension).

As to the GOEX FFG 20 grain load with the J/P 200, it shot nice!

In the 5.5 inch ruger, it gave a hearty 709 FPS and shot nicely to POA and grouped well.

From the 24 inch Marlin, I got 880 FPS, and also grouped pretty durn good.  No evidence of tumbling etc at 40 yards.

I had fouled both the rifle and pistol with 10 777 loads prior to shooting the GOEX, as I didn't have enough rounds to use them to get the guns "seasoned".

The 20 grain GOEX-J/P200 load is snappy to say the least, and only gives up a little velocity to Captain Baylor's published figures for 34 grains of GOEX Cowboy in LONG Colt cases with 200 grainers.  It is probably more than most cowboys will want (18 is much milder) but would be a good load for the "BOOM and BUCK" folks who would like to save $$$ on powder.  (nice flame visible through the sights   )

  Last time I checked, ya get 350 20 grain loads per pound, where ya only get about 205 rounds per pound at 34 grains.  That's quite a savings. at 18 grains ya get even more,on the order of 388 rounds, or nearly twice what ya get using the long colt brass.