New to CAS, interested in Black powder

[Captain Hubert Arzhel]

Hello,

I'm new to CAS.  I shot my first match this weekend at the local range and had a blast.  I've watched and read about CAS for a couple of years so I know a little bit about it.

I've always had an interest in black powder, having done some reenactment and also black powder hunting.  So the blackpowder catagories are real interesting to me.  I think I'll do a military persona circa 1870-71 or so.  I've got a fun idea of a Foreign Legion persona maybe...

I have some basic newby questions:

(1) What is the difference between the blackpowder catagories in SASS like frontiersman and frontier cartridge? 

(2) When getting my gear set up what are some things I should keep in mind?  I am drawn towards Remington 1858s for the revolvers, I've always wanted a pair and I love the way they shoot.  I think I'll get Ubertis for the quality.  What should I keep in mind in gearing up to shoot cap and ball?

(3) What about drop in cylinders for 45LC with the Remingtons?  What brand?  R&D?

(4) I've some leads on a shotgun.  But I'm a novice when it comes to lever guns.  In fact I don't really care for them.  Whats the "cheapest/no fuss to maintain" lever gun?  How could I keep ammo costs down with it and the Remington 1858s?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I'm real curious about jumping in!

[Major 2]

Remingtons with R&D is a great choice
Frontiersmans is cap & ball only so with the R&D you can switch back.

Frontier cartridge is just that fixed cartridge in BP ( the Conversions work here too )

now the the issues ... your persona is circa 1870-70  that limits your Lever Gun anyway to a Henry , King Conversion Henry or a 66 Yellowboy at least these are the only ones replicated.

your also limited to a SXS...

I say limited only by your persona (BTW that's my era interest also) so it's not a handicap in my opinion.

You might want to look at the new Uberti Remington conversion available shortly from Cimmaron ( I posted a photo on the Remy forum)
Granted you can't convert it back to Cap & ball, but it's perfect for Frontier cartridge.
Cost wise it will be about the same as a new C&B Uberti Remy & a R&D Cylinder one on one...

[Noz]

Don't sell the Pietta 1858s short. I like mine. Fit, finish and function is excellent.
Another difference in Frontiersman and Frontier Cartridge is the F shoots one handed and the FC can use both hands.
I shoot cap & ball two handed in FC.

The black powder classes are the only ones you might hear the shooter talking to the targets or singing while he shoots.
Not only a license to make a fool of your self but a way to gain style points while youo're doing it.

[Dick Dastardly]

Welcome to the Darkside Alaskan.

I feel the pull of the white smoke and dark powder are very strong in this one.  Soon he will come to wear the black sash and his grin shall be huge.

All the advice you can get here is free, and worth every penny of it.

DD-DLoS

[Sunwapta Haze]

Welcome to the path of the One True Powder, Alaskan.

I like your choice of handguns.  The Remmies are my personal choice as well.  I have two '58s in 36 cal.  They are sweet but they don't pack a lot of punch for some knockdown targets.  80 grain balls don't have a lot of momentum even when you push them with 23 grains of the Holy Black.  Lots of muzzle velocity but not a lot of power.  They do shoot to point of aim and sure enough ring steel.  As you are thinking of getting the '58 Army (44 cal) you should be okay.  You will probably experience some cap failure issues unless you hit on the correct nipple and cap combination right at the get go.  Not all caps are the same size regardless of the designation they carry.  I had some issues at first but then bought Treso nipples and use Remington #10 caps - that combination is almost fail proof.  Check out the SCORRS forum if you haven't already done so.

I suggest you invest in a loading stand as these make loading the '58s considerably quicker and much more convenient.  Added bonus is that the removal and replacement of the cylinder seems to limit the amount of cylinder pin fouling that may be occuring.

The '66 Yellowboy would be a real good choice for your lever gun (I wish I had one).  You might want to seriously consider getting it in 44-40 to reduce some of the problems associated with straight wall cartridges and blow by.  But there again there are ways and means to make BP 45's work well in your long gun.  Check out the Dark Arts section at the top of this forum page.  I use a '94 Marlin shooting 38 spl. and finally found the problem of blow-by fouling, in my case, to be the crimp.  I have resolved my fouling issues by using a Redding crimp die.

If you choose to shoot in the Frontiersman Class you will need a hammered double or a lever action shotgun.

[Cactus Cris]

I beg to differ with S. Haze--You don't need a "hammer double" in Frontiersman class.  Any sxs will do or the 87.  Even in "plainsman" a regular sxs will work.  Other than that what has been stated is good to go.  I would recomend the Treso Nipps OR the Thunder Ridge brand of Nipps.  Either are real good.  I prefer the Colt style-  I have 58's in 44 & 36 & a set of R&D cylinders in 38spl but still like the Colt style.  Really like my 61's in .36 and the 62's in 44.  It is all about what YOU like.

[Captain Hubert Arzhel]

Thanks for the replies and information!

What should I expect to pay for one of those Henry rifles?  I'm happy with a used one, as I said I'm not much of a lever gun guy.

Also related to some recent posts on "in the box guns" and "smith tuning", would it be best to get the Remington 1858s and play arround with them first and THEN think about having some work done on them?  Or are there some mods that are just "necessary" to do to get the shooting well for CAS?  I'm not a gamesman so I'm not looking for a tricked out rig, just thinking about reliability for shooting. 

I'm more into having fun in with a cool character/uniform, while spitting loads of smoke and fire out, rather than really worried about scores and time...

[Presidio]

With muh '58's I just shot 'em right outta the box.  After about 100 rds they broke in right nicely.  Mine are Pietta .44's & I use a .454 ball with 25gr BP, or (on occassion) the Pyrodex 30gr pellet fer faster loading.  Jest drop in with or without a wad patch.

I generally give 'em a wipe down about the 4th stage with a rag soaked in Balistol ta' minimize any seizing or gumming and to ease the cleaning up process at home..

There are things like narrowing the Hammer Spring to lighten the action of hammer and trigger by "Hour Glassing" it.  But being new, ya' might want ta' steer clear of that until you become more familiar with yer pistols.  Take too much off, and you'll have a hair trigger with a bunch of AD's (Accidental Discharges) or broken springs.  There is also a set screw on the inside of the grip behind the trigger guard that you can adjust the tension of the Hammer Spring - again - be careful - it don't take much ta' lighten them.

I've also got the R&D 45lc conversions in them w/ 200gr RNFP w/ 5.8gr Tradition powder and some with 5.4gr Red Dot.  Both have given me no grief to date.

[Sunwapta Haze]

So sorry - Right you are Cactus Chris - I stand corrected.  Frontiersman can use any side by side or a lever shotgun.  Hammered doubles are only required for Classic Cowboy. 

[Cactus Cris]

S. Haze--Not a problem!    I thought the same for some time till I wise'd up and read the rule book again.  Lo & behold there it was in print.

[Sunwapta Haze]

Whats the "cheapest/no fuss to maintain" lever gun? 

In my limited experience, the least expensive (new) and the least fuss to maintain is a Marlin 1894.  Only a few moving parts and real easy to disassemble/re-assemble.  They do have some problems though with the lever, carrier and loading gate screws working loose.  Ya needs to keep an eye on them.  I use Locktight on mine and they will still back out. 

There is also a phenomonom referred to as the Marlin jam.  Almost always associated with the 38/357 cal model but known to happen in others as well.  Some Marlins seem to be very sensitive to the OAL of the rounds.  Regarless, it is easier (IMHO) to clear a jammed Marlin than a jammed Winchester.

The Marlin slicks up pretty easily as well (at least mine did) by simply replacing the main spring , the lever latch spring and lightening up (or removing - not recommended if you plan on using the lever gun for other purposes than CAS) the lever safety. 

The only problem I see with the Marlin is that it won't fit into your 1870s persona but I guarantee that regular CAS shooters won't care. 

[Cincinnati Slim]

Howdy Y'all,

I got a pair of Pietta 1858 Remmies and like 'em just fine. The gripframes are a little bigger than the Uberti models and fit my hands better. Get you a spare spring kit from Dixie, Cabela's or VTI, cause the trigger-cylinder bolt springs are liable to break after a while just like the Colts do. These Remmies are purty sturdy right out of the box. I lightened the hammer-mainspring by cutting a lengthwise slot in it with a hack saw to make the hammer draw a little easier. File or grind away any sharp edges after you saw the cut to reduce chances of a stress-riser crack. I ordered a spare beforehand so if I screwed up I'd have a replacement. 

I'm shootin' FFF Goex black or FFF Triple -Seven, usually about 30 Gr w/.454 lead ball. Got Thunder Ridge stainless nipples and use #11 Remington caps and get superb reliability. My offhand groups are typically 2-3 inches at 15-20 yards. I have some spare cylinders to speed things up. Stainless ones are about $45.00 from Cabela's and are easier to clean end maintain than plain blue steel. I sorta liked the "two-tone" look and had my brass triggerguards nickle plated at the local bumper resto shop to match !

Get you a cheap SxS coachgun and save yer pennies for the Henry. It's gonna be the priciest item in your new arsenal !

Happy trails,

Cincinnati Slim

[litl rooster]

Thanks for the replies and information!

What should I expect to pay for one of those Henry rifles?  I'm happy with a used one, as I said I'm not much of a lever gun guy.

I've seen 1860 Henry's rifle's in the local toy store from $600 to $1100>>>It is what I use for a main match rifle. They are pretty easy to work on also, even easier than a Marlin. Just not as fast.


Welcome to the Darkside

[Captain Hubert Arzhel]

Thanks for all the pointers!

I'm going to get those Remingtons soon and start practicing.  Maybe invest in R&D cylinders later on.  Keep my eyes open for a used Henry in 45 (to match the R&Ds).  Also I'm using this as an excuse to get a vintage hammer SXS.   'Cause I NEED it for CAS!! 

[litl rooster]

Thanks for all the pointers!

Also I'm using this as an excuse to get a vintage hammer SXS.   'Cause I NEED it for CAS!! 

Your a fast learner