Sweet!

[Frenchie]

I got a sweet Colt 2nd Generation 1848 Baby Dragoon, a "Wells Fargo" revolver without the loading lever. I'm going to get a drop-in conversion cylinder to shoot .32 S&W. My '51 Navy Colt and New Model Navy Remington are being smoothed over by Steve Young steve@stevesgunz.com right now, and I'll get conversion cylinders for them too. This Baby Dragoon will probably get the same treatment from Steve.

[Irish Dave]

Sounds sweet, indeed. You just gotta love those conversion cylinders.
That ought to be a dandy.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I brought this up before & never got a concrete answer so here goes again. Colt never chambered a conversion in .32 cal. All .36's were made into .38's. I'm not trying to pee on the parade here but are they legal as they never existed? Lone Gunman had a great counter argument via analogizing a Colt SAA (or clone for that matter) in .357 being allowed as well as  Henry in .45 Colt. However, if we allow these in .32 then what's to keep someone from using a Ruger Vaquero in say 32 H&R Mag. or another pipsqueak .32 that's been rebarreled & rechambered? 

[Frenchie]

Kid, first of all, this is an 1848 Baby Dragoon, which is a .31 caliber. Colt converted them and 1849 Pocket Models to .38 Rimfire and .38 Centerfire in the 1870s and 1880s. But that's only what Colt was doing. Colt wasn't making all the cartridge conversions; I'm pretty sure they weren't converting Remingtons and LeMats, to name just two other brands. Remington Pocket Models were converted to .32 caliber rimfire and centerfire - do you think it was impossible to do the same to a Colt Baby Dragoon or Pocket Model, or that only Colt could do it?

The fact is, there were other companies and individual gunsmiths who also converted cap 'n' ball revolvers to use cartridges. The technology of the R&D conversion cylinder was invented about two hundred years ago - it's nothing that can't be done by a competent 'smith with a modestly-equipped shop - and it was, and is, quite often.

Metallic Cartridge Conversions: The History of the Guns and Modern Reproductions by Dennis Adler

And the Ruger .32 H&R Vaquero isn't on the Not Allowed List because of its caliber, it's there because it doesn't resemble anything that was made in our time period, which is the same reason the Bisley Vaquero isn't allowed. It makes no difference what caliber it's chambered for.

[Frog69]

hear some thoughts about this... first NCOWS spiffies any pistol calibers that means if a rifle is shooting 45LC,32SW, 44 Russn,32RF, 45 Schofield's etc. its ok as long as it is a approved rifle or a original and you may use any center fire cartridge in the place of an obsolete RF cartridge so a 357 mag does equate to a 38 long colt. A 32 HR equates to a 32RF extra long all would be a acceptable exchange. Correct me if i am wrong in NCOWS it is more a concern ( in the rules) that the firearm being shot is of the proper silhouette than the original  Caliber to that gun.And i would also like to point out that the use of approved items in NCOWS is tied to an Era not a persona so you are allowed to combine any combo of the approved items or original items they chose regardless of when it was available during the era we repentants . The exception to that would be the ORIGINALS CLASS what you use is tied to your persona ( Question does your firearms need to be the right caliber to the original guns to compete in this class??)Now what i hope would happen is for people to be a little motivated to do some research on a persona and put to gather a good representation of what that individual might have looked like and had in there person But, It is not necessary...... Just some more thoughts.....

[Frog69]

I brought this up before & never got a concrete answer so here goes again. Colt never chambered a conversion in .32 cal. All .36's were made into .38's. I'm not trying to pee on the parade here but are they legal as they never existed? Lone Gunman had a great counter argument via analogizing a Colt SAA (or clone for that matter) in .357 being allowed as well as  Henry in .45 Colt. However, if we allow these in .32 then what's to keep someone from using a Ruger Vaquero in say 32 H&R Mag. or another pipsqueak .32 that's been rebarreled & rechambered? 

I beleave 32 HR was approved for use........ As i have always said small calibers are not gamer loads and correct (and Fun) when use with the proper persona

[Frenchie]

I think you have the basic ideas right, Frog. In my case, I guess I'm leaning toward the Originals class because I'm going to use firearms that my persona would have had access to in the historical sense. I'm not planning to go for Originals, it's just working out that way because I'm putting historical accuracy first. For instance, I won't use a Rossi 1892 Winchester if I'm in a pre-1892 uniform. Right now my Army uniform ends at 1872 (Open Top Colts, 1873 Winchesters, SAAs, etc. are out) but my Navy uniform ends at 1897 (almost anything goes).

My point to Fox Creek Kid was that even if no one converted an 1848 Baby Dragoon to use .32S&W centerfire cartridges, the technology to do so was in place long before and there's no reason to think it wasn't doable, and no more reason to think such a conversion should be questioned in the first place, let alone not allowed.

Question does your firearms need to be the right caliber to the original guns to compete in this class??)

I don't know, maybe I'll go look it up. Obviously, if I have an original or reproduction of a firearm that was originally chambered in, say, .20/10 Fairbanks-Morse caliber, and no one has made any rounds in that caliber for many years, then the NCOWS rules say I can use another, more modern caliber that is available.

Now what i hope would happen is for people to be a little motivated to do some research on a persona and put to gather a good representation of what that individual might have looked like and had in there person But, It is not necessary...... Just some more thoughts.....

Actually, I think that's what NCOWS is all about, so it is necessary.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Frog69 said;

The exception to that would be the ORIGINALS CLASS what you use is tied to your persona ( Question does your firearms need to be the right caliber to the original guns to compete in this class??)

No, but the firearms do have to match the persona research/information you turn in to shoot the Originals class. Some of us shoot the Henry rifle and it was never chambered for the 44WCF (44/40), or 45 Long Colt.

Also remember the Originals Class is a Two-Gun-Class, yoiur choice... You have to finish with the guns that you started the match with. You can replace a gun ONLY if you have a break down during a match, BUT it has to be of the same type of gun and caliber.....or you're just S&%T out of luck....thats what makes this class so much fun...... , or maybe.. . or ,maybe..

Bill

[Frog69]

JH .....(Also keep in mind that not all original authentic small frame pocket pistols are allowed. James Hunt has an original Colt pocket pistol with a 6" barrel that does not meet the criteria set forth in the By-laws. Barrel has to 4" or less for a pocket pistol. I submitted a proposal that would allowed pocket pistols such as his, but was voted down. )



i am sorry but i do beg to differ You can use all original authentic small frame  pistols you just need to know how you can use them as . As an example.... a original authentic small frame Pistol 32 caliber or larger with a barrel length of over 4 in. may be used as a main gun but,NOT as a defined NCOWS pocket Pistol. In a addition to , you could use a original authentic small frame Pistol with a 4in. or shorter barrel as a main gun that is doable as well this is supported in NCOWS rules

Joss House your proposal that would allowed pocket pistols by your definition, appears to be a very good attempt to look at this from a historical stand point and keeping it real. just because it didn't make it once before doesn't mean you cant bring it up again

[Lone Gunman]

...  But that's only what Colt was doing. Colt wasn't making all the cartridge conversions...

"There were undoubtedly Factory-produced 'Alterations to Cartridge' specimens, but it has been the misfortune of this author to have failed to find any in the course of this study. He can be blamed to some degree because this was not followed up as studiously as it could have been, but the few conversions of the .31 caliber pistols to .32 caliber cartridge which did come to his attention were not Factory work although a few were fairly good specimens of workmanship..."

    from "Colts Variations of the Old Model Pocket Pistol 1848-1872" by P.L. Shumaker 1957

He goes on to speculate that the reason Colt may not have produced .32 cartridge conversions could have been because most of the early factory produced cartridge arms were small caliber guns (ie Sharps pepperbox, Colt New Line, numerous S&W, etc) so the potential market for converted pocket models would have been much smaller than for the larger caliber conversions.

[O.T. Buchannan]

If you are shooting a Spencer, a Henry, or an 1866 Winchester, it is not possible to shoot them in their original caliber.....they were all rimfire rounds.  With the exception of experimental specimens, the 1872 Open Top was also a rimfire firearm.  THIS is why NCOWS does not mandate that the caliber be exact.  The firearms mentioned above are among the most historically correct reproductions being produced, so we make do with the calibers that they are being produced in.

The same goes for the Originals Class.  The firearm is tied to the Persona, but it is understood that correct calibers for some of these firearms (especially the early ones) are not available, so we make do with what IS available.

[Black River Smith]

From a book called "The Metropolitan Museum of Art"  Chap called "COLT CONVERSIONS" sub section "ALTERATIONS OF EARLIER MODELS" Pages 33 and 34.
"Development of the metallic cartridge in the late 1860's brought about the adaptation to its use of many models of Colt revolvers originally designed for percussion caps.  As was the case with these models, the methods of conversion also went through an evolutionary process. culminating in the introduction in 1872 of the first Colt of military size initially made to use a metallic cartridge."

"102.  Alteration Model of 1849.  See plate XXXV
6 inch barrel; converted to .32 caliber rimfire by boring through chambers and cutting down cylinder, as above(?), to fit into breechplate screwed to recoil shield slotted for hammer to which tooth had been added; serial number 130096."

"103. AlterationModel of 1849. See plate XXXV
4 inch barrel; converted to .32 caliber centerfire by foring through chambers, cutting down cylinder back of stops, and fastening plate, countersunk forrims of cartridges, to rear thereof; topstrap screwed to froam and barrel;recoil shield grooved for loading; firing pin added to hammer; serial number 138895.  This specimen is believed to be a field conversion."

Also see the "American Rifleman", March 1982, article titled "BLACKSMITH CONVERSIONS" by Sanford Strother, page 34 and 35, "Fig. 1: An 1849 Colt converted to .32 cal by cutting the cylinder to open the rear of the chambers but preserve the ratchets."  "Fig. 2: One '49 Colt conversion utilizes a pentagonal cylinder shaft.  The matching filler plate then revolves with the cylinder."

The idea of a conversion (Kirst and R&D are acceptable) of an accepted pattern is not a problem(see By-laws).  The idea of using calibers of bullets in authentic looking guns is not a problem(see By-laws.  The use of a non- (never) existing item in an accepted firearm is a problem (deviation from, not in By-laws).