SASS legal? nice gun.

Dick Dastardly · March 22, 2006, 11:57:16 AM

Winchester Model 1892 Lever Action Rifle, frame dated 1908, has Model 65 barrel in 25-20. The photo looks like it has a half magazine. I'm wonderin' if it's SASS legal? It would be my smallest BP caliber.

DD-DLoS

Arcey · March 22, 2006, 12:05:49 PM

Caliber is legal. No box magazine. Exposed hammer. Lever action. Don't know why it wouldn't be legal.........

Paladin UK · March 22, 2006, 01:25:30 PM

Fer DD....

Hmmmmmm...........

Bin done givin this some Reeeel _deep thought

I reckon its definatly NOT SASS legal!! `n I reckon iffn yer plannin on gettin it I should keep a hold of it fer ya until such times as I reckon it does!!

Paladin (Whats only too happy ta help ol DD ) UK

sundance44`s · March 22, 2006, 01:31:32 PM

Sounds sass legal ..but the cal. is smaller than 32 dia.bullets, and they may have something to say about that ... hummmmmm good question , might be a good question for the sass gruroos ..i`m a little stumped about it now . okok i found my hand book .. it says rifles /any lever or side action , tubular fed ,exposed hammer rifle or carbine manufactured between 1860 and 1899 or reproduction thereof ....centerfire .25/20 or larger in pistol caliber...rifles with box magazines maynot be used ... quess not then .

Dick Dastardly · March 22, 2006, 03:56:40 PM

I might buy it. The price is $495 plus shipping and FFL fee. That's more than I want to spend on a novelty gun, but I sure like the looks of it. Crescent butt plate and all.

DD-DLoS

P.S. No, I won't say where it is. I saw it first.

El Paso Pete · March 22, 2006, 05:08:27 PM

I was takin to Wild Shot #51 on the phone today on another matter and I asked him 'bout them 25-20's. Wild Shot said they are SASS legal, no problem usin 'em at any SASS match. WS also said not to send it PUK, he did once that and it come back with a funny name and and accent.

El Paso (who sees PUK sure is doin good on them new lutefisk meds) Pete

Capt. Augustus · March 22, 2006, 06:37:48 PM

It sure is SASS legal, however there is a drawback. At a longer than regular range for a target, there's the problem of hearing the ding. I had that problem with my .32-20 once. The counters had these fantastic earplugs and couldn't hear anything smaller than a .38. Two of us using .32-20's were not heard, even I could hear mine hit. Oh well, another miss.

Dick Dastardly · March 22, 2006, 07:02:17 PM

Varying opinions abound. Was this a BP round, or smokeyless only?

Thanks,

DD-DLoS

Fox Creek Kid · March 22, 2006, 07:59:05 PM

That's funny as I thought it was a RIFLE cartridge.

However, since SASS allowed the 56-50 Spencer I'd imagine the "lawyers" in SASS are making their arguments. Oh well.

Hell-Er High Water · March 22, 2006, 08:12:23 PM

Dick,

As for being SASS legal, the new SASS Covenants say that the only exceptions to the pistol calibers for main match rifles are the 25-20 & the 56-50. According to my TG, it is legal.

As to if was a black or smokeyless load, "Cartridges Of The World" says that it was introduced in either 1893 or 1895, as there is some disagreement on the exact date, and that the 30-30 was the first smokeless sporting round introduced in the US in 1895. This would tend to indicate that it was a BP load when it first was introduced. In addition my reprint of the "1902 Sears, Roebuck" catalog lists two different loadings for most cartridges, including the 25-20. In their smokeless section they list a load of 7.5 gr of powder (type not identified) with an 86 gr lead bullet and state tha these cartridges are the same shape and size as their "Regular Black Powder Cartridges". In their regular cartridge section they list the load for the 25-20 as being 17 gr of powder with an 86 gr lead bullet. 17 gr of powder would indicate a BP load, with the 20 in 25-20 probably indicating an original load of 20 gr of BP. They call both the smokeless and regular cartridges "25-20 Winchester, '92" cartridges.

I think you are safe to do whatever works for you. BP in a 25 caliber bottlenecked cartridge may prove to be a challenge. Keep us advised.

HHW

sundance44`s · March 22, 2006, 09:32:06 PM

It would have had to have started life as a BP cartrage ..being digit /digit the first digit being the caliber the second digit being the gr in BP from what i`ve read ..things didn`t change till modern powder .. and some of the old ones were kept like the 45/70 and loaded with the new fad modern powder . They say the 30.30 was never a BP cartrage modern only .

El Paso Pete · March 23, 2006, 05:55:45 AM

Sundace44's is right. But remember, there was no CAS back then. These were work guns and used to shot Coyotes, ground hogs, and other small critters. If a feller had a busy day he might fire as many 3 or 4 shots then clean that night.

For black powder loads I have hard time believing that you could get enough lube on that little bullet to shoot even a 4 stage CAS match without cleaning. If you could get 10 shots off B4 it started to lead up using Swiss I'd be surprised. Smokeless is no problem, ain't no fun either, but it should work.

Go ahead and get the dang thing. If ya don't like it you can give it to me or Palandin UK.

sundance44`s · March 23, 2006, 07:29:52 AM

MIght make a good side arm on the tundra in case of a teddy bear attack .

Driftwood Johnson · March 23, 2006, 08:02:15 AM

Well, the SASS Wire is down AGAIN right now, so I can't access the handbooks, but 25-20 is definitley a legal mainmatch rifle cartridge, and has been for some time. It is not a legal mainmatch pistol cartridge. The '73 was never chambered in the cartridge, but the '92 was, as evidenced by the example you have seen. I'm not sure how well a half magazine will work in CAS though, I doubt it will hold 10 rounds. Interestingly enough, the Colt SAA was never chambered in the round.

It was concieved as a small game round, and its antecedent was another round named 25-20 that was chambered in single shot rifles. That version was too long to function in the action of a '92, so Winchester came up with their own version, duplicating the ballistics of the earlier round, by necking down the 32-20 round.

Modoc · March 23, 2006, 09:18:49 PM

DD

She be legal! Also a hoot to shoot!

Had fun at the last match that I used mine in, was purposly shootingthe targets near the top edge. You cold spot the hits by the way that 85gr. pill was rocking the plates on the stand (leverage works

). I have not tried it with true powder, but would recomend a lube cookie or similar under the pill. BTW, that Little rifle is great for Cowboy Silhouette. Non existant recoil and will take the borego down with authority.

Modoc (Who loves his 25-20 '92)