Hey .... Something to chew on

[Frog69]

How about we start looking at NCOWS shooting events Differently. If we truly want our shooting to not mirror SASS than How about we try this.
Each stage shot would be scored as follows
#1 ) Previous to the start of the match during set up each scenario would be test shot with a timer to establish the maximum time allowed to complete the course of fire. As an example it would be tabulated as fallows if during the test it takes 60 seconds to complete the scenario that time is doubled for a max time of 120 seconds
#2) During the coarse of fire each Hit on a designated target is 5 points
#3) Misses are just that a miss and no points will be awarded
#4) Any targets that are not hit by the end of the maxim time for the scenario are misses see#3
#5) There will be a timer used during the shooting of the scenario and the time will be recorded for each scenario as it is completed as long as the elapsed time is under the maxim time allowed for each scenario. If elapsed time goes to the maxim time allowed it would be recorded as the maxim time as figured in #1This time will ONLY be used to break a tie in the scoring
#6) At the end of the event for each participant the total number of hits will be added up to determine the winner in each class. Example 150 hits = 750 points.. See #2
#7) The total elapse time for each participating will be totaled.. See #5
#8) In the event of a tie in total points in a class You will then compare The total elapse time for each person involved in the tie deciding the order of their finish by the person who completed the scenario's the fastest ..See #5
This will make Accuracy first and how fast you can shoot second so some one who is a slower shooter has just as much chance to win as a speed shooter, speed modifications become a mute point (they don't make a gun more accurate). It would be up to the individual range if they would allow a shooter to pick up misses
Well have at it, this is just another way to think outside the box

[Fox Creek Kid]

You may want to boil the "meat" a little longer as it seems too tough to "chew" for everybody. 

[Will Ketchum]

An interesting idea.  You might accomplish the samething by making all targets must hit.  If you missed a target you would have to keep shooting until you hit everyone.  This would work best with knockdowns.  It gives a change of pace from the normal stage.

Will Ketchum

[James Hunt]

Will: Hey I like that, sorta like a real gunfight, not that I wouldn't hold up more than a few with a considerable amount of reloading. I always thought it would be neat to have a stage where you face three knock down targets at varied distances with one pistol but you had to succesfully knock down all three with five shots, don't and you're considered dead. Absolute nothing for the stage. In some specialized categories like working cowboy or originals why not do something, well "original".

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy RCJ,

Yep there was.  I was dead!

[Frog69]

All have some good input, but i would like to defer the reference to knock downs unless in the scope of historical shooting the targets just need to be hit and not necessarily do they need to be knocked down.As i have said before when using small calibers as main guns it is not considered GAMER LOADS when using them with the correct historical impression.
Would like to add that along with the new way to look at scoring witch makes time second to accurate shooting.Each scenario could be set up for rifle, pistol,shotgun and even hide out gun. the targets could easly be spread out at different distances and not all in a row might try some in different sizes.Then establish how many total rounds that would be shot a that scenario  and let the person use what they want to in the way of firearms to get the total member of hits. As a example lets say the total hits for a scenario  is 20 a person might use 2 pistole's 5 rounds each a rifle 8 rounds and a shot gun 2 for a total of 20 but,
some one else might use just 2 pistols 5 rounds each  reloaded for a total of 20.  some one might use shot gun 4 ,rifle8, 1 pistol 5, hide out gun 3 for a total of 20. If some one only owns a rifle
they could shoot 10 reload 10 for a total of 20.This could make it a little more true to history and allow  most people regardless of how many guns the own to participate .If you want to shoot a lot of guns, go at it .if you own only one you will be doing a lot of reloading. Our events should be fun i can appreciates the idea of our shooting being competitive but, no one makes a living at winning at our shoots in fact i have never seen one check handed out to any winners so why keep beating our selfs up on the whole supposed problem of fairness and lets get back to havening fun

[Lars]

Frog,

Your suggestion is one of many, many ways to make stages really interesting.  I have shot numerous "must hit" stages, even more "must knock down" stages.

Now and then I have shot special stages that consisted of both must knock downs and man-on-man. In those each shooter has some number of knock down targets -- shooting either revolver or rifle, sometimes both -- that they much shoot. The winner is the shooter that finishes first, with some number of seconds added for each target left standing. THAT really does give a sence of reality to the game.

IF you wish to allow small calibers a more "fair" chance, use cardboard targets, perhaps with a "must hit" bullseye. This too can have a really large dose of "reality".

Lars

[Bristow Kid]

Those are all really interesting ideas.  If any are implimented i think it would make the shoots more fun.

[Will Ketchum]

Frog, the problem with just "must hit" without knockdowns it is hard to let the shooter which targets he missed unless you repaint them for each shooter or use paper like Lars said.  I suppose the targets could be numbered and the spotters could yell out the numbers for which were missed.

Will Ketchum

[Lars]

Pete,

Those are, as you know, just the reasons why some folks avoid stages with "must hit/knockdown" scenerios UNLESS they have suitable knockdown targets.

Frog and others,

As one can readily understand, in a man-on-man stage, failure to knockdown targets is akin to scratch hits on a real advisary. Of course, one could use some real lightweight, small knockdows for the folks with little guns. That would sorta simulate their need to shoot much more accurately than the person shooting a 40, 44, or 45 loaded original weight bullets to late 1800s muzzle velocities. Ahhhh.. now .. just where does authenticity end and the fairness of uniform stages start???

What I have seen several times is stages with cardboard targets or repaint targets after each shooter and the shooter is responsible for deciding to, or not to, shoot again any targets he/she thought they missed. More often, the stage writer is merciful and does not allow the shooter that option. IF one is at SASS "in your face" distances from targets spotting your own hits/misses is quite feasable (at least for those folks shoot nitro powder!!!) -- at 20-30 yards, not to mention 40-50-60, etc, the shooter has little hope of spotting hits/misses (unless, of course, he/she has the 10/20 or better vision many of us once had and really fast eyeballs). If it means a reload to shoot missed targets, it is almost always in the shooter's interest to just take the misses, if allowed by the scenario. These kind of stages let the shooter use pretty much whatever loads and guns are allowed.

Lar

[Guage Rod]

Hey, Frog, varriety is the spice of Life, I think that each shoot should have a very diverse type of format.  I think the scoring option you have should be tried on a stage or two.  Any thing that adds to the mental aspect of the game and brings in a lot of imagination is a good addition.  I know that not every gun fight was a "show down" where the shooters all stood to shoot.  Most bad guys prefered to shoot from cover so it is probably more realistic to have must hit or knock downs.  I have shot at these types of stages and think they are rather cool.  I also like the kind of stages where you have 10 shots to knock down 7 or 8 targets either timed or untimed. 

I am told that the CVR club may be having a day at the range where scoring is optional, and their are no timers.  This was done last year at the last shoot of the year.  Some where put off by it and did not even bother showing up when they found out.  I felt it was rather interesting for a change after the initial surprise.  I do not know if others were doing as well as I was but I still manage to have a gun failure and miss a couple of pistol and riffle targets.  Go figure!

We were also able to shoot from the Hipp on a few of the stages(Shot gun only).  This all adds to the realisum and varriety that I like at a shoot.  Would I want every stage at every event to be like this?  I do not think so.  Did it help build confidence in the novices or others just starting out?  I would like to think so.  I believe a lot of people are turned off by the fear of being looked down on if they are not a 50 second a stage shooter and simply do not even bother trying out.  My wife stuggled with this very thing. 

I believe NCOWS has lots of things going for it and the biggest thing it has going for it is that it is run by its members.  Each one has a general, common interest, yet each has a chance to come up with ideas to make the sport more appealing to those who are enjoying the events. 

Vaya Con Dios     

[Lars]

  Most bad guys prefered to shoot from cover.......

So did the good guys. At least the smart ones.

Lars

[Books OToole]

A simple way to deal with the knock down issue is to use the dueling tree concept.  If you hit the plate it spins to the other side of the tree.  There would be no need for ropes to pull to reset or shuting down the range to do the same.

Books