Two Day Matches - Fees and Costs

[Camille Eonich]

What do you feel is a fair price to pay for a two day match?  what do you expect from a match from a two day match and does it make a difference if it's just an annual match or if it's a state or regional match?  Do you expect meals to be included?  Do you expect for the banquet to be included or do you even expect for there to be a banquet?


All input is will be much appreciated. 

[Sagebrush Burns]

I run a two day match in Colorado.  It is my clubs annual match.  The cost is $50 first shooter, $40 significant other, $20 junior.  This includes lunch both days.  Saturday is main stages AM, side matches PM.  Sunday is main stages AM, posse shoot and awards PM.  For the first time this year we are offering a banquet Sat. nite ($20 per person-optional).  Everybody gets a "door prize" and trophies for 1st, 2nd, 3rd place main match catagories and side matches.  Our club is the Northwest Colorado Rangers in Craig, Colorado.  The match is "Where the Old West Stayed Young".  Dates are Memorial Day week-end.  I'll be crassly commercial here and post the web site:

     www.nwcorangers.com

and invite all to participate.  Hope this info is useful. 

[Tensleep]

The only difference that I can see in a BASIC two day match is the cost of awards if no meals are included.

Around here a monthly six stage match costs $10-17, what additional cost are incurred for a ten or even twelve stage match over two days? I have even been to monthly ten stage matches where the cost was $10-15. Are shooters at the multi-day match being charged for new props or improvements that will be used by the host club for months or years to come?

I have heard it said that a multi-day match NEEDS to have a tent, more porta johns, a PA system, maybe so.... but I have been to great multi-day events that didn't NEED to have those things. AND they didn't have them.

Do I really want another cup, mug, or what not to commemorate my being there? If I do want something let it be my choice to BUY it, not pay for something that I don't want in my entry fee.

Lots of clubs are using a multi-day match to be a profit maker for the club. If the club is indeed looking to make a profit for additional work on the range, a new club house, targets, ect. then why not jack up the cost of the monthly match instead of charging 3 to 4 or more times as much for a monthly?

If there is a banquet or other after match activity then I can see a need for an additional charge.

I do not expect for meals to be included.

If I want to participate in side matches, then I am willing to pay a reasonable price.

I'm willing to pay double whatever the cost of shooting a one day match is at that club plus my share of awards, that way the club can make at least one match profit on the multi-day match.

To me.... there should be NO free rides for ANY shooter at ANY match, whether HE/SHE won the level below or not. Why should MY entry pay HIS/HER way? This happens at LOTS of matches. It happens for other reasons as well as winning a lower level match.

I wish that I hadn't read this post, now my blood pressure is up.

[Gold Canyon Kid]

Arizona Sunshine and I get to attend a whole lot of major or yearly matches,  somewhere around 20 plus per year.  The prices of these matches has been going up dramatically in last couple of years.  I am positve there are some really good reasons for the costs to raise, but I think many shooters are finding these matches to be beyond their reach. The cost of fuel is hurting major matches espeically those depending on folks coming from different states.  Here are some suggestions to reduce match costs from our perspective:
-Make all food seperate line items on the application or make all food availible from vendor(s). The only exception might be an awards banquet to insure attendance. More on this later.
-Don't spend any money on prizes.  If you get some free, have a drawing and hand out those to the winners of the drawing.  An exception might be to raffle off guns or other very nice awards for a profit to be used by club or donated. You might have to purchase the guns (hopefully at distributor costs).
-Entertainment is OK if free, but I would not pay for entertainment.
-Getting a mounted Remington statute is very nice for first place category award (and some clubs have done this), but a first place plaque means just as much. Do give awards to at least half of the shooters, but the award is not the important thing, the recognition is in fromt of the other shooters. Do give awards to both women and men in side matches and for more than first if possible.  Again the award is not that important the recognition is. Many really great shoots we have attended have had some cowboy made awards out of leather, carved wood, etc. to reduce these very large costs.  Fancy engraved plaques are a dime a dozen, something hand made is a lot better and usually cheaper. Nice ribbons for 6-10 place are nice, these winners still get to stand up and take a bow.
-Belt buckles for all shooters is not needed but is awarded by some clubs. Don't do it.
-Fancy award banquets are really fun to attend but really not necessary and many shooters do not attend them regardless of how they finished.
-Charge a small fee for dry camping to cover added costs for campers, i.e. waste, water, etc. Why should everyone pay for my camping costs?
-Raffles are a really good way to offset costs for the match if you have really nice prizes.
-Fancy shooting books are not mandatory.  Some pretty major shoots only have rules printed and everyone gets to see the stages when it is their turn to shoot them.
-Spend club money on things that are important.  Targets that are in good shape.  Timers that really work right.  Props for the stages you will shoot in the match.

An example of a lower cost major shoot is the yearly shoot held by the Rio Salado Cowboys in Mesa, Arizona.  This club has range scheduling problems so they have one really long day of shooting for their yearly anniversay match.  The single day starts with a complete set of long range matches (up to around 350 yards).  This is followed by side matches of every variety you can imagine, including Plainsman, speed events for rifle, pistol and shotgun plus all the fun derringer, pocket pistol, 22, etc matches and includes a couple of warm up stages.  Lunch is served and INCLUDED in the cost (a box lunch).  In the afternoon, 4 stages are shot.  A break is then made for a costume contest and dinner which is INCLUDED in the cost (a great hot chicken and beef meal with all the trimmings).  In the evening under the lights 4 more stages are shot.  This match has everything a 3 or 4 day match includes but skips about two stages. The match gives awards to 5 places for each category as I recall.  Folks are pretty tired at end of the day, but it is a great fun match and shooting at night adds to the fun more than you can imagine. I think this years shoot had around 150 shooters so it was not a small match.

The total fee for this match at Rio is $45 per shooter-and this included a great lunch and dinner.  Just so you know, I am the last one to complain about shoot increasing costs but am reporting what others tell me.

Now my pet peeve, post results rapidly on WWW.  I have attended some major shoots and had to wait several weeks for the results to be posted.

[Camille Eonich]

Maybe I should have left the costs part out of the subject on this.  What I am actually looking for on this thread is what you are willing to pay to attend a match and what you percieve to be a good value.  I intend to do another thread that goes into what it cost to put on a big match/ two day match.


Y'all are hitting around what I'm looking for but not quite there.  It's mostly a matter of perception about what draws you to a match or what turns you away from one and how the price that you pay, the out of pocket cost to you, affects your perception of the value.

[Arcey]

Perception.  Personal choice.

After four hours of driving, I want to be where I need to be and the hell out of the truck.  Want to be back here in the same length of time when it's over.  I want to travel 'light'.  Don't want to pack anymore than I'd need for three nights - two is much better.

I'm more the local shoot sort.  I like going shooting and returning the same day.  If a two day has that flavor, I'm ready to go, even if it a couple nights away is involved if I can spend time with folks I enjoy being around that I don't get to see often.  And, if I'm away - I WANNA PARTY!  At least until it's time to drop.

Value.  Friday, side matches and registration at the range.  A common gathering for supper, not at the club's expense but organized by the club, i.e., 'a bunch of folks are going to meet at _______ for supper'.  More partyin'.

Saturday morning early, final registration, shooters' meeting and the first of the stages. Lunch by the club and in the match fee. Evening, a banquet.  Optional and at the shooters' expense.  More partyin'!

Sunday, final stages.  Lunch on the club.  Awards and it's over.

Vendors.  If they're there, fine.  If not, fine.  That isn't why I'm there.  Door prizes - nice, I like free stuff.  But if they aren't there, fine. 

A nice award for shooting well, like that too but I want to know I did it more than I want the object.  All I've won are on display so I can see them.  Proud of them.  Used to keep them in my office downtown when I was working full time so others could see them.  No one sees them in the office I have here but me, that's fine too.  Being involved in putting on local shoots, I just don't want to see a club going to a lot of expense to produce them.

Another thing I want to know is the club putting on the event is plowing whatever profit gained back into their range for the promotion of CAS.  To make it better for their monthly shoots and future multi-day events.  People sweat blood to put on their 'big' shoots.  They deserve the profit for that purpose.  Heck, when you get right down to it, they deserve it for whatever they wanna do with it.

You know me and you know the shoots I'm thinking of.  To me, whatever they charge is a value at twice the price.  Meals, gas, motels, shackin' out at a pard's place - worth any of it. 

To answer the question, that's value to me.

Just wish my elder daughter had timed the birth of my grand kids so other partys didn't interfere with my participation in some of them.  I'd rather sweat in August than miss the events in October..............

[Big John Denny]

Camille, I think that depending on the amenities provided for a clubs 2 day match, anything between $80 to $120 would be reasonable. The higher the cost the more I would like to see a free lunch each day. Banquets should be optional and paid by those that wish to attend. Prizes don't have to be costly. It really is the recognition that matters to most.

[Missouri Marshal]

Ya want Value?  The Show Me Shoutout, SASS Missouri State Championship!  Now these folks know how to put on a match and ya git every penny's worth.  Here's whats INCLUDED in your match fee,  All side matches, 3 lunches(good ones), 5 main stages on Friday, Friday Casino night with eats(at the Branson Raddison), 5 main stages on Saturday, Saturday night awards banquet(again at the Raddison) and team shoots and shootout on Sunday.  All for how much?  $125 - $150?  No all this for only $95.00.  Now that is one heck of a value! Oh and the special cowboy rate at the Raddison for the shoot is only $65.00 per night.

[Digem Deep]

Howdy Camille

What do I expect from a multi-day match. I expect to have 2 days of very well produced stages. We want them to be fun. I do expect that there be enough restroom facilities. I do expect that the home club makes some profit on the match. A lot of work goes into it, and they should reap some benefit.

I do not expect lunches to be provided. If there is a after dinner event, that also can be for an extra fee. The awards are not that important to me, probally my 2nd favorite award of 2005 was my "Worst Gun Cart Award" from Star City. If there is a big tent, thats OK, but I know how expensive they are.

I other words, for every extra that an event organizer provides, it cost each shooter. So the hard part for the organizer is trying to predict what extras the patrons want, and how much they are willing to pay.

Camille, I know this doesn't help a lot, but it is my little contribution.

[Gold Canyon Kid]

A two day major match has problems fitting everything that interests us into the span of the two days.  In my earlier post, I showed how much can be put into one day, but most shoots don't do this.  Most clubs would have 10 or 12 main stages and little else in two days.  This falls far short of what I personally like in a major match.  I think the side matches, long range matches, warm up matches, costume contest,  etc. offered  at most major matches we attend to be of more interest.Most clubs use 3 days for all these activities.  Club supplied food is clearly not necessary but a vendor or two on site is nice.  If no food is availiable on site the literature before the match better say this so folks can come prepared. Some shooters like myself are diabetics and need to eat every 4 hours or more often because of the meds we take.

[Dakota Dan from OZ]

Camille Hi

Our two day shoots downunder normally run around AUS$ 30.00 to $50.00 without meals. We would shoot 8 to 10 stages over the two days plus side matches.

I am putting on a two shoot in February we start at 1.30 pm on Saturday shoot 4 stages and speed events and a night stage also cowboy clays under lights. Sunday we will shoot 4 more stages lunch a presentation and be home for tea all for AUS $30.00.

Hope this may help.

D D

[Doc Shapiro]

What I expect and what I am willing to pay are different based on that match.  No sides?  Awards after shooting the 2nd day?  That's where I'm confused.  A 2-day match isn't likely to be a state or regional.  Those are typically 3 to 5 days.

I do not expect meals.  For a 2-day match, I don't expect a banquet.  But a food vendor on hand the first night would be really nice.

2 day matches I expect to be local.  2 days of stages, maybe side matches after stages on day 1.  10 stages total.  6 on day 1, 4 on day 2.  Hopefully by the time it's cleaned up scores will be ready.

I figure $40 or $50 is fair for something like that.  I don't expect much in the way of awards for something like this. 

Now if you bump it up to 3 or 4 days, then the entire format changes.

Doc

[Papa Bear]

I attend mostly local two or three day annual events to have fun shooting with people that I have not seen in maybe a year and to meet new shooters.  Sometimes I will go to a state or regional event.  The well run main stages and the people are the reasons that I attend any annual.  I understand the need for larger annual fees because of the extra costs but I don't like my entery fee to pay for some of the very costly type of trophys that can be given out and the door prizes that are not donated.  I also think that a Saturday night dinner should be an option and not included in the match fee.  I am not a poor man and I can afford to pay any price, but I think that some of the annual fees are getting way too high.  I would enjoy a match that had no trophys, just a inexpensive computer generated piece of paper that says you won X place in X catagory, and no door prizes.  The reason we should all be there is for the companionship of our fellow shooters and to have a grand time, not to just bring home a flashy and expensive trophy.  

[Camille Eonich]

Papa Bear that kind of brings me around to my next question.  Are you more likely to attend an away match or a large match if you travel with friends?


Oh and feel free to go into larger matchs and what you are willing to pay for them and how you determine if you're going to go or not.

[Papa Bear]

Camille

I have traveled as far as 900 miles to attend a three day small local match, just the wife and I, because it is one of the most friendly and fun shoots that I have ever been to.  It is the Great Northern in the panhandel of Idaho.  Last year I did not attend any annual shoots anywhere because of CAS burn out.  This year I will be at the California State Championships only because my home club is the location this year.  One local annual and the one in Idaho will fill out my list for this year.   I have been to EOT one time and I did not care for the very large crowd of people and all of the hassels that go with it, same for the regional.  Nothing wrong with them, just not my way to enjoy myself, I hate getting lost in the crowd.  Friends have been after me to shoot at Winter Range.  I hear that you only shoot four stages a day for three days.  Thats alot of down time for me.  And I wonder if the cost will meet my enjoyment expectations.  Again, I enjoy meeting new people as well as being face to face with the people I talk with on the wires.  I may try it in 2007, maybe. 

The answer to your question about traveling with a group, it would be fun but the wife and I are the type that will go off in a different direction at the drop of the hat.  We always get where we are going but we sometimes wander quite a bit.   Having close friends at a shoot is great but if their not there I will have new friends by the end of the match.           

[Marshal Will Wingam]

For local matches, I feel up to #50 is fair. No banquet or dances. A place to park my motorhome overnight is good and I don't mine tossing a little extra in to help out, maybe $5-10 for the night. Vendors don't do much at these matches because most people are in and out with little time to do much more than shoot and relax afterwards.

For state or regional matches, up to ±$100 is fair. Most of the ones we attend are $95 for the first entrant and a little less for the spouse. Any banquets or other stuff should be optional and a separate charge. We usually participate in these. Also, it's nice to have a place to park our motorhome for the full time which usually means 3 or 4 nights. For the whole time, $15-20 isn't out of line and if there are hookups, I don't mind paying that per night although we haven't found that anywhere yet. Vendors are a nice addition and I like to pick up an item or two to support them.

For both, raffles are a good thing. It's nice to support the host club, so I always participate. I even won once.

[Griff]

Regional or State matches:  what I wanna spend <$100 w/spouse between 1/2 - 1/3 that, including at least 2 side matches, and awards banquet, not much else needs to be included outside of decent door prizes, and good facilities.  Generally, I'm wantin' to spend some of my own time over the 3 days to visit, willing to travel.  Yep, & distance ain't a real problem as when I have, its' been a week vacation or more.   
2-day matches, Annuals, +/-$75.00 w/spouse between 1/2 - 1/3 that including at least 2 side matches.  No banquet necessarily included, but maybe avail.  Travel, not as far, as I probably don't want to be gone more than 3 days, long weekend type event.  Facilities must include camping/or nearby motels.

[snakeeyea1]

At our shoots we have 2 day local match shoots. Nothing fancy but we get alot of shooting in. We generally shoot 10 stages but have shot 12.
This is the first year we are trying some 1 day matches.

[Kantankerous Ken]

I have attended two state championships and one regional this year.  Plus a couple of local club annual shoots.  The annual shoots used donated prizes and lunch was provided.  The cost was very reasonable.  But it was also mainly a ten stage match and lunches.  All awards and raffles were done at the lunches.

The state and regional matches add in costume events, banquets, dinners, some lunches, fancy name tags, bound guides etc.  All of these could be seperate cost items for those interested (maybe not the name tags since they serve as proof you are a registered shooter).  Have raffles instead of door prizes unless the prizes are donated.

The main focus for me is the stages, targets and smooth operation (timers and posse coordination).