Okay really curious about this...

Started by tarheel mac, February 26, 2006, 08:24:31 AM

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tarheel mac

Noticed this yesterday.  On a lot of Westerns I saw something odd. Now I know Westerns are hardly what we want to take our info from, so I went to the Time Life Book series "The Cowboys" and also "Packing Iron."  I noticed that in at least two of the photos in "PI" (pages 164 and 167) , the cowboys were carrying their rifles in saddle scabbards upside down.  You see this so often in Western movies that you are more or less forced to believe that this is way it was done, or at least Hollywierd seems to think so. But why? For the life of me, I can not see any reason to have a 10-12 lb rifle bouncing up and down on its sights.  Maybe it a bit easier to put in and take out while mounted? Anyone have any answers?  St. George or Delmonico?

law dawg

It might be that by carrying upside down when they slide it out of the scabbard all they have to do is swing the barrel up underhanded.  If it was right side up they would have to turn it around by either crossing their bodies and not hitting the horse on the head or swinging the rifle out to the side, both slower than the underhand swooping motion.  That would be my guess and I'm no horseman, so take it with a grain of salt.

Fly Cop Fry

I think law dog has this right.Try the following to demonstrate the logic to yourself.

Simulate holding rains in your left hand and keep in mind that any movement of that hand to the left or right will signal to your mount that you want to turn that direction.

Now with the rifle laying on a bed or across the arms of a chair with the lever down grasp the rifle stock near the lever and attempt to bring it up to a shooting position. Turn the rifle over with the sights down and try the same. I think it will be apparent why the rifle is in the scabbard with sights down or forward (if the scabbard is carried vertically, as it is many times). 

tarheel mac

That's about what I figgured...(see my first post...) but I sure wouldn't have wanted to actually had to have hit something big, nasty and dangerous with a rifle that was spending its time bouncing up and down on its sights in a scabbard on a horse!

Steel Horse Bailey

"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"

Delmonico

The fella know as "Liver Eating Johnson" (Sorry don't have his real name handy right now)  had an extra piece of wood added to the bottom of the stock on his 1876 Winchester to make it even easier.

Since most saddle guns used a tough barrel sight breakage should not be a problem.  Besides that if it's big and close enough to be dangerous, you don't really need a sight.

BTW, I went over and doble checked, even the scabbards for scoped rifles use that position, so if it was that hard on sights I don't think anyone would carry a scoped rifle like that today.
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

St. George

Think for a minute about how a saddle scabbard is constructed - thick, heavy leather - bent and stitched in an elongated 'U' - often with a teardrop-shaped plug.

Essentially - it's a hardened 'trough' with a relatively 'soft' interior surface to absorb shock.

Plus - it's under a saddle skirt and under a leg - effectively pinning it in place and keeping it from bouncing around.

Saddle guns of the time weighed a bit less than the 10-12 pounds suggested:
Winchester 1873 Carbine - 7 3/4 lbs.
Winchester 1873 Rifle - 8 3/4 - 9 lbs.
Winchester 1886 - 8 lbs.
Winchester 1892 - Carbine - 6 1/4 lbs.
Winchester 1892 - Rifle - 6 3/3 lbs.

All weights are 'approximate' as they may vary due to caliber, barrel style, etc.

A carbine or rifle will most likely lose 'finish' - but the rest of the weapon will be in good shape and most shots were well within snap shot range for anything that rose up suddenly.
The key there is to shoot the weapon well enough so as to 'know' where those shots go naturally - thanks to experience.

As to 'which side' - the Army scabbarded their earlier Sharps and Spencers with short  'loops' attached to the McClellan and used over-the-shoulder slings - the reason for the loop-and-bar - and carried on the right.
Trapdoor Carbines used a more developed one with a brass 'throat'.

That way, the barrel was 'captured' and the Trooper didn't have it flailing away at both himself and his mount at the gallop.

Later, they would scabbard their Krags and Springfields on the right side - bolt 'out' - to lessen any rubbing on the horse.

The reason?

They carried their saber on the left and drew it with their right hand.

Civilians often copied that which the Army did - and many ex-Cavalrymen would still use the right side because of habit.

Butt-to-the-rear allowed a weapon to be drawn or scabbarded easily when mounting or dismounting - and no doubt was a viable method of carry as well.

To 'really' figure out what was done and when - more attributable period photos are needed - and even then - the method could vary by region, custom, convenience and a whole host of other variables.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

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