Spencer Load Information - Please Post What Loads Work Best For you!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Message from Two Flints, moderator : This thread has been merged with several post.
This thread is for those SSS members who have worked up a Spencer load that works best and safely for them and who wish to share that data with other SSS members.  Please be advised that any load data or information pertaining to Spencer loads is presented here by SSS members as informational data only.  Common sense should always be used when applying any available loading data for personal use.  Loading data information suggested by SSS members should be presented as completely and as accurately as possible. If any SSS member has already posted load information in this discussion forum, it would be greatly appreciated if you would re-post it in this thread, with any necessary editing to make your data as complete and accurate as possible.

Finally, let's keep this thread JUST FOR LOAD INFORMATION!

Thanks,

Two Flints

Tuolumne's original post and the responses he received appear later in this thread

Two Flints

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

This thread is for those SSS members who have worked up a Spencer load that works best and safely for them and who wish to share that data with other SSS members.  Please be advised that any load data or information pertaining to Spencer loads is presented here by SSS members as informational data only.  Common sense should always be used when applying any available loading data for personal use.  Loading data information suggested by SSS members should be presented as completely and as accurately as possible. 

If any SSS member has already posted load information in this discussion forum, it would be greatly appreciated if you would re-post it in this thread, with any necessary editing to make your data as complete and accurate as possible. 

Finally, let's keep this thread JUST FOR LOAD INFORMATION!

Thanks,

Two Flints 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Howdy to the camp.

I understand some of the feelings about the feeding, etc. of the Armi Sport Spencers.  Early ones, especially .44 Russians, had feeding problems.  The .45 Schofields have a better track record, especially the latter ones.  The problem is the great variety of bullet shapes and length, as well as a zillion OAL when people reload.

The Spencer by design is VERY OAL and/or bullet design sensistive.  My two originals that I owned (both 56-56 carbines) were OAL sensitive also. If it was 1/32 too long or too short, it wouldn't feed. Other Folks who shoot originals (I know many) always have to mess around to find the length that works, especially with 56-50 originals.  That is why Taylors specifies a particular load.  The action is designed for that bullet design and OAL. 

Feeding is a function of both OAL and bullet shape, as the cartridge guide indexes the next bullet by WHERE it hits the ogive, not really the OAL/  MY 56-50 will feed a very short, stubby BAC .512/350 bullet that is over 1/8" shorter than the 350 Modified LEE with its longer taaper, because the cartridge guide engages the ogive in the same place

To cuss a Spencer because it doesn't like an inapproppriately loaded round is like cussing an 1892 Winchester in .45 Colt that doesn't like Schofields.  Or cussing a Ford because Chevy oil filters don't fit.

As for extraction, the twin blades of the .44 russian and .45 Schofield are less than ideal. Some people remove the right one to improve the extraction. That is why with the 56-50 and 44-40, Taylor's has shifted to the central "Lane extractor."  The lane did not work well on soft copper cases in the 1860s, but works great on the brass cases in the modern guns.

A Spencer  is not a revolver that you can stick in any old .45 Colt and it will shoot.  My WW2 Vintage National Postal Meter M1 Carbine is finacy about bullet legth and shape.  It feeds GI ball flawlessly, but hates HP and soft nose bullets.

When you find the load that works, the Spencer will function flawlessly.  I plan on using my Infantry rifle for pig hunting!

[Ed Clintwood]

Tuolumne Lawman
What do you find is the "right" OAL for the Lee modified bullet? And if you've shot the Lyman bullet, that one too.

[Two Flints]

Hi SSS,

I requested permission to "hijack" Spencer load information from the North-South Skirmish Association (N-SSA) discussion forum and have put together some of the information I gleamed from them.  I have not edited their comments.  I also included the name or alias of the person presenting the load or bullet information and the date when it was posted on the N-SSA forum.  I hope you find this information useful.

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# 1 Post
Romano Spencer Load Information

Posted by E.W. Johnson on N-SSA on Tuesday, January 3, 2006

As many have said before, using the right bullet, bullet length and making sure your follower and upper breechblock are right makes all the difference in getting your spencers to work properly. In my two origonal Burnside M1865's, I've had good results with both the Rapine spencer .520375 sized to .517 and the smith .515365 also run through the .517 sizer. The spencer bullet is seated and crimped at 1.650" and the smith bullet at 1.598. The oal are different due to the different shapes of the bullet ogives. The upper breechblock must rotate between the cartridges in the magazine. It must push the 1st out onto the breechblock and push the 2nd back into the magazine allowing the breechblock to rotate, chamber the round and close. If your bullet profile and oal is correct, check to see if the front top edge of the breechblock is too sharp. If it does not have a slight raduis to the edge, It has a tendency to catch (grab or cut into). the soft bullet and cause a jam. The top front edge of the breechblock must pass between the two cartridges, picking up the 1st and pushing the 2nd back into the magazine. My carbines do work best if the muzzle is inclined towards the ground. Most of the time, they can be cycled from the shoulder but it is not as reliable as with the muzzle pointed down because the extracted case falls out of the action instead of sometimes laying in the cartridge guide (follower). These guns are alot of fun but you must remember they were very different from the Henry repeater, more like a repeating singleshot (kind of like a singleshot with a magazine). Still a lot quicker to load than the rifled musket. Have fun with your spencers!

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# 2 Post

Romano Spencer Load Information

Posted by J. Wimbish on N-SSA on Tuesday,  January 18, 2005

I purchased a set of 4D Spencer dies from Larry Romano. These dies work very nicely. I also purchased a bullet mould from Romano. The bullets should be sized to .512 inches. I use lead that has only been slightly hardened. The Romano Spencer has about a 1 in 36 twist so using soft lead is pretty much out of the question.

The overall length of the cartridge should be no more than 1.565 inches. It can be a little less without causing problems. Use a medium to firm crimp. I use only 33 grains of Goex 2f in my Spencer and get excellent accuracy. Go with a magnum primer. I use Federal 215's. If you choose to shoot a hotter load, like 40 grains of 3f you will want to go with harder lead. However, from an accuracy standpoint there is no need to do this. The lighter load delivers excellent accuracy and is comparable to extremely accurate loads that I shoot in the Maynard, Smith, and (relined) Gallager.

I have also had good luck shooting the 365 grain Rapine Smith bullet in the Spencer. Use hard lead and size to .512 inches. This bullet sizes down very easily.

I have shot Accurate 5744 in my Spencer as well as black powder. The Spencer is a relatively easy gun to clean, so I saw no reason not to shoot black powder in it.

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Post #3
Romano Spencer Load Information

Posted by Mike w/34th on N-SSA on Monday, January 17, 2005

I have one of Larry's guns, and it's a work of art. Getting it to shoot took some work, but once you find the magic formula, it's right on. Here's what I use (on Larry's recommendation):

Brass: reformed BELL .50-70 cartridges from Buffalo Arms
Primer: magnum large pistol primer Use the hottest you can get.
Powder: 40 gr. FFFg GOEX. Rumor is that Swiss will shoot even better.
Lube: pan lube with SPG or use lubricizer
Bullet: Romano Spencer mould cast in 9 parts linotype/1 part pure lead.

No filler or wad, so be sure to wipe any lube off the base of your bullet before you assemble the round. And like Ken says, use a heavy crimp.

That bullet alloy gives you a Brinell hardness in the 19 range, which is harder than you can get with wheel weights or tin alloy, even quenching them. I got a pack of 100 from (now defunct) Liberty Shooting Supply, and I was amazed at how well they shot. It was like night and day compared to "hard" lead bullets I'd made, and that's what I've been casting myself ever since. That was really the key to getting my gun to shoot. With wheel weights, I was shooting "minute of barn door" groups. With the really hard bullets, it became a pigeon killer.
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Post #4

Favorite Bullets for  ArmiSport Spencers 

Posted  by Hoot- 3rd GA on N-SSA, on Friday, December 23, 2005

My Armisport Spencer prefers the the Romano Rifle Company .50 cal. bullet sized to .516. It has one large grease groove between two long driving bands. It is long enough to produce the AOL of 1.5" to 1.6" necessary to feed through the magazine.
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Post #5
Ammo for Taylor Spencer

Posted by Hoot - 3rd GA on N-SSA, on Wednesday, October 12, 2005

I have put over 2000 rounds through my Armisport Spencer and have found the following to be true for my carbine. The overall cartridge length must fall between 1.6" and 1.7". You can use the 50 cal "Smith" bullet or the 50 cal. Romano bullet seated and lightly crimped into Starline brass. The nose of the lead bullet should be flat to prevent ignition in a tubular magazine, but it's shape doesn't seem to affect feeding into the chamber. Production Starline brass is too small in diameter to seal in in the chamber so it must be expanded by fire forming with a heavy charge or by using an oversize expander ball in the 56.50 die set. Enlarge just the upper end of the case because Starline tapered the inside toward the base so expanding too far down inside the brass would ruin it. I never resize the brass during reloading ... just use the depriming pin to knock out the primers. The lead bullet must be at least .516. If everything is right, the cartridges feed perfectly and there is no fouling of the brass or block. One other quirk... if you leave the chamber damp after cleaning the bore......the cases seize up and refuse to eject smoothly. Every time I shoot it, I learn something new. During the BLR match at this last nationals, one of the screws holding the firing pin cover backed out locking up the block so it wouldn't cycle. Keep both those screws tight. There is alot more but I have to go for now. Hoot

The End (for now)

[Two Flints]

Hi SSS,

I have taken Spencer Load information posted by members of SSS from an earlier thread and have included it here, giving each member credit for their data.  No editing of the data was done.  Hope you find this information useful.

Two Flints
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Posted by Tuolumne Lawman on April 22, 2005

Howdy to the camp,

A few month back on the SASS wire, someone posted smokeless powder load data for the 56-50, I believe with either 5744 or Some hodgdon's powder.  I thought I printed it out, but can't find it.  SASS wire has purged it.  Anyone have it or any 56-50 smokeless data. BP and Triple Seven are no-brainers (fill the case), but I have no smokeless data.  Ken at Ten-x says his smokeless loads go 1300 FPS and BP substitute go 1100 FPS, but the ingredients ae a secret!
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Posted Response by Harve Curry on April 25, 2005

These loads are safe only in my original Spencer 56-50 carbine:

All with BELL 50-70 brass cut & trimmed to size & annealled.

350gr Rapine bullet#520350, over 16gr of 2400 powder, tuft of poly fiber fill to keep the powder over the primer. Chrono. is 1000fps.

Unique powder also is good for easy reloads, 9gr.

I had no luck with 5744. It would need a filler.

I was on my own when I started and used 45LC Colt SAA loads to give me a starting point, these loads have worked good for me for 10 years or so.

Check the post on best groups with a Spencer. I have been able to wring out 3-1/2" at 100 yards. But ArizonaTrooper has a B.P. load there that cuts that by more then half.

Anything much over 1050 FPS with a 56-50 Spencer is to much. There is such a thing as rearward bolt thrust, the wider and heavier the bullet the more the rearward bolt thrust. A Spencer 56-50 with it's .520" caliber bullet probably has more rearward bolt thrust then most other calibers we shoot. An example is the 1873 Winchester copies, a 357mag that operates at 37,000 psi is available but not a 44mag. ( But EuroArms use to import a 44mag 1873 Win.). The Spencer design only has so much breech locking surface.

You CAN duplicate black powder pressure & accuracy with smokeless powder but you can also fast exceed it.

Like I said at top, these loads are only proved safe in my Spencer.
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Response Posted by KLW on May 10, 2005

This is the answer I got when I e-mailed the makers of 5744.



Caliber: 56-50 Spencer.
Barrel length:  22"
Powder: AA 5744.

Bullet weight:  300 grains.
Start load: 19.0 grains (1100-1200t/p/sec)
Maximum load: 22.0grains (1200-1300 ft/p/sec)

Bullet weight:  350/360 grains.
Start load: 18.0grains (1000 -1100 ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 21.0 grains (1150 -1250ft/p/sec).

Bullet weight:  400 grains.
Start load: 17.0grains (900 -1000 ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 20.0 grains (1100 -1200ft/p/sec).
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Response Posted by Hell Er High Water on May 10, 2005

Here is what I have experienced so far with smokeless loads in the 56-50.  Since there was (is) no load data available, I started out with low end and reduced 50-70 loads and tested them in my 50-70 carbine.  Since the 50-70 is basically an elongated 56-50 I figgured that this was a good place to start.  XMP-5744, IMR 4198 and SR 4759, while providing reasonable accuracy, are all very dirty, leaving so much residue in the chamber that it had to be wiped between shots in order to chamber the next cartridge.  My best results have been with Unique and IMR 4227.  While both burn fairly clean, the IMR 4227 has given better results than the Unique and in the loads that I use it nearly fills the case to the base of the bullet.  In addition, it meters through a powder measure with great accuracy from charge to charge.  The best load so far has been 23.5 grains of IMR 4227 with a 335 grain bullet, cast out of 20:1 alloy.  This has given 2", 5 shot groups at 50 yards and I'm still trying to refine it some.  The bullet is from a Lee, 500 grain mould that I modified by turning off 2 grooves and two bands from the base.  This provides a bullet with a large flat nose.   I didn't want too pointed a bullet in a magazine right next to my face.  I'm using a homemade lube on them, sized 0.512", with Winchester WLR, large rifle primers in Starline brass.  I hope that this helps and at least gives you a starting point for your smokless loads.
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Final Response by Tuolumne Lawman on May 11, 2005.

Howdy Pards,

Thanks!  Thanks just the info I was looking for.  I will let you know how it goes.  I am esepcially intrigued by the 5744 loads!  Another powder I have wondered about is IMR 3031.  It is useful for low preasure, high velocity loads in 38-55 and such.

Thaanks again

TL


The End

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Howdy to the camp,

Well, I was able to get about 25 yards at my range where I didn't need a boat.  Shot the 56-50 infantry rifle finally.  It functioned flawlessly.

It liked the modified lee bullet cast at 350 grain over 43 grains FFG Triple 7.  4 out of 5 were sub-1 1/2", but the last shot opened it up to 2".  Not too bad for leaning on a milk crate, in the mud, with the sun  in the wrong place.

The BAC .512/350 bullet over 40 grain triple seven shot a lttle bigger, which surprised me, as it shot very well in the carbine.

The modified LEE shot about 2-3 inches below point of aim, though.  In the carbine, it shot about 2 inches above.  I can easily trim the front sight, but I will wait until I get the right load worked up.

I am also going to try 45 grains FFG Goex, .45 grains FFFG Goex, and 45 grains Pyrodex all dropped through drop tube next.  In the carbine, the FFG Goex gave the best accuracy With a Ten-X bullet.

I will keep you all posted.