Closest match?

[9245]

As I look more and more heavily towards getting in to cowboy action shooting I find myself far more attracted to NCOWS than SASS, the unfortunate thing is that I am in South East Michigan and the nearest posse to me seems to be in Northern Indiana, which is unfortunately far too far for me to reasonably drive to attend a match.  My question is is there anything closer to me that I am not seeing?

Plenty of SASS stuff but I am turned off by the lack of focus on authenticity and some of the arbitrary rules made in a poorly thought out attempt at finding balance.  Plus some recent interactions with some of their members left me agitated to say the least, my impression up until this point were that most cowboy action shooters, regardless of sass or ncows were generally friendly and enthusiastic to share information but now I find that on the sass side there are some truly rude people who seem to take offense not just to desiring to be historically accurate but also to asking questions in general and so caught up in their own ideas that they actually resulted to openly insulting me.  I am therefor done with them, they can take their attitude problems, arbitrary rules, and SAAs and plant them all firmly where the sun doesn't shine.  Maybe it is just a few bad actors and I will calm down eventually, but for now I'm done.

So how about it?  Is there anyway for me to shoot NCOWS without having to invest 3 days and 2 tanks of gas, and 1 or 2 nights in a hotel?

Also, are there any published official rules?  I found someone the website but they seem incomplete?

Finally, though I have a full impression planned it is in no way ready yet, I still have many expensive things to buy (as an aside, why are correct hats and boots all $300-500+ each?) and it will take a very long time to get it all with my restricted budget, is it still possible to compete?

[bear tooth billy]

Thanks for your interest in NCOWS, I am the current Marshal (President). We
are a much smaller organization than SASS, and therefore don't have near as many
posses, and therefore not as many shooting venues. I would very much encourage you
to come to our convention next March. we have many vendors that sell new and slightly
used gear. I have bought boots for $50, and hats and shirts for $10. If you join NCOWS
you have a year to get your gear together. You can go to our website to the Tally book and
read all the rules.

                               BTB

[9245]

Thanks for your interest in NCOWS, I am the current Marshal (President). We
are a much smaller organization than SASS, and therefore don't have near as many
posses, and therefore not as many shooting venues. I would very much encourage you
to come to our convention next March. we have many vendors that sell new and slightly
used gear. I have bought boots for $50, and hats and shirts for $10. If you join NCOWS
you have a year to get your gear together. You can go to our website to the Tally book and
read all the rules.

                               BTB

Where exactly is that convention?  And are there ever events held closer?  At that distance (Northern indiana) I would be lucky to attend even once a year.

Also, some general questions:

Is there any restriction about period (pre 1899) double actions or semi autos?  I did not see it spelled out in the rules.

Is there any restriction on how many rounds can be loaded at a time?

What about shotguns?  Does the same silly 2 round limit that SASS has apply, or could you load the whole tube?

What about cartridge conversions?  What types are allowed?  Are they all allowed?

Can loaded conversion cylinders be swapped for reloads?  What about cap and ball?  Part of the appeal of gateless conversions was versatility, in the early years metallic cartridges weren't always available so the ability to swap back and forth to percussion would have been an attractive selling point, but presumably that would mean that they would have at least one percussion and one conversion cylinder on hand so hot swapping might well have been a thing.

[Tascosa Joe]

This year the convention will be held in Davenport, IA at the Double Tree by Hilton. We dress in period clothes all weekend and have seminars as well as the Victorian trade show.  We allow pre 1899 double actions but not semi autos. Yes we are aware that broom handle Mausers were around but they are not allowed.  Double actions include 1899 Smith & Wesson and Colt New Service. If you are running a pump or 1887 Win lever shotgun, you may load more than 2. Our most popular class it working cowboy which requires 1 pistol and 1 rifle.  We do not allow short stroked pistols or rifles.    I know there are clubs in Iowa but I am not sure how close to you that would be. I hope this helps. T-Joe

[9245]

This year the convention will be held in Davenport, IA at the Double Tree by Hilton. We dress in period clothes all weekend and have seminars as well as the Victorian trade show.  We allow pre 1899 double actions but not semi autos. Yes we are aware that broom handle Mausers were around but they are not allowed.  Double actions include 1899 Smith & Wesson and Colt New Service. If you are running a pump or 1887 Win lever shotgun, you may load more than 2. Our most popular class it working cowboy which requires 1 pistol and 1 rifle.  We do not allow short stroked pistols or rifles.    I know there are clubs in Iowa but I am not sure how close to you that would be. I hope this helps. T-Joe

Thankyou, and that is already worlds better than SASS.  I an actually in Michigan, the closest place to me that I saw online was in Northern Indiana.  FYI don't forget the Borchardt C-93, it came out in 1893.

What about cylinder swaps or restrictions on cartridge conversions?

Good to load all 6 chambers if I have a safety notch between chambers?

I am interested in the convention, just not sure I can make it given where it is, but I will try.  The issue is that to get there I either have to drive 7+ hours, about half of which would be through enemy territory in Illinois where I would be unconstitutionally disarmed and left defenseless, (heck 50/50 their gestapo would arrest me just for having cased guns, legal or not) or 14+ hours if I go around Illinois, but that would require an extra night hotel stay both there and back, or flying, which would be downright expensive, just no good travel options unfortunately.  How many days is the  convention and what all is there to do there? (Help me sell the trip to my wife).

[River City John]

Five rounds only is for a safety issue, and most all scenarios are written for five rounds. If more required, then a single reload may be incorporated, often on the clock at the beginning of the stage. The issue for shooting the stage with six rounds loaded but scenario calls for only five rounds is that if you're left with a live round in the firearm when you proceed to the Unloading table is a violation and result in being penalized.

If you habitually load six rounds you'd have to discharge the surplus round downrange every time on the clock, thus leading to 1.) waste of ammunition over time, and 2.) you're adding seconds of time every stage to your score just to take care of discharging the unneeded round in order to make the gun safe before proceeding to the Unloading table.

Welcome to NCOWS. We have many members who do not have a home posse, but enjoy the opportunity when available to travel, share thoughts here on CAS City, and keep in touch through "The Shootist", our national magazine. Take it slow, ask questions like this, and enjoy the ride.
 

[9245]

Five rounds only is for a safety issue, and most all scenarios are written for five rounds. If more required, then a single reload may be incorporated, often on the clock at the beginning of the stage. The issue for shooting the stage with six rounds loaded but scenario calls for only five rounds is that if you're left with a live round in the firearm when you proceed to the Unloading table is a violation and result in being penalized.

If you habitually load six rounds you'd have to discharge the surplus round downrange every time on the clock, thus leading to 1.) waste of ammunition over time, and 2.) you're adding seconds of time every stage to your score just to take care of discharging the unneeded round in order to make the gun safe before proceeding to the Unloading table.

Welcome to NCOWS. We have many members who do not have a home posse, but enjoy the opportunity when available to travel, share thoughts here on CAS City, and keep in touch through "The Shootist", our national magazine. Take it slow, ask questions like this, and enjoy the ride.
 

My question was just if it were allowed.

I understand the safety thing, but I don't really agree with it.  Yes, many period guns are not safe to carry fully loaded, but many also are, for example cap and balls and cartridge conversions will mostly all have safety notches to carry with the hammer between chambers.  I think having rules or match stages centered around the five round weapons is a mistake and not really period accurate.  I'll explain, if you actually loved in the old west and had to select some of these weapons as your actual everyday carry piece, not something to compete with weapon design would be an important consideration, just like it is today when choosing our carry pieces, and a revolver that is not safe to carry fully loaded would certainly be something to consider, as would another revolver that was.  Then imagine that you were actually in a fight, well in a fight no one is concern about gameplay balance and the guy with 6 rounds is going to have a distinct advantage over the guy with only 5.  So I think competitions should mirror reality and stages should not be designed exclusively with the SAA crowd in mind.  If you want to use an SAA fine, use one, but realize that you will be at a disadvantage to those who chose a more capable weapon, just like you would have in the real old west.  Personally I would like to see more stages that required reloads, because reality does.

I think if you did that you would start to see some radically different weapon selections and I think those selections would mimic what reality would have been at that time.  I think that just like in the real old west/late 19th century that double actions and top breaks would become way more common in later years than SAAs and cartridge conversions and that earlier periods would have a lot more variety, including lots of cartridge conversions and cap and balls still in use well in to the gate loading era just because of safety notches alone.

[Abilene]

 

[River City John]

My question was just if it were allowed.

I understand the safety thing, but I don't really agree with it.  Yes, many period guns are not safe to carry fully loaded, but many also are, for example cap and balls and cartridge conversions will mostly all have safety notches to carry with the hammer between chambers.  I think having rules or match stages centered around the five round weapons is a mistake and not really period accurate.  I'll explain, if you actually loved in the old west and had to select some of these weapons as your actual everyday carry piece, not something to compete with weapon design would be an important consideration, just like it is today when choosing our carry pieces, and a revolver that is not safe to carry fully loaded would certainly be something to consider, as would another revolver that was.  Then imagine that you were actually in a fight, well in a fight no one is concern about gameplay balance and the guy with 6 rounds is going to have a distinct advantage over the guy with only 5.  So I think competitions should mirror reality and stages should not be designed exclusively with the SAA crowd in mind.  If you want to use an SAA fine, use one, but realize that you will be at a disadvantage to those who chose a more capable weapon, just like you would have in the real old west.  Personally I would like to see more stages that required reloads, because reality does.

I think if you did that you would start to see some radically different weapon selections and I think those selections would mimic what reality would have been at that time.  I think that just like in the real old west/late 19th century that double actions and top breaks would become way more common in later years than SAAs and cartridge conversions and that earlier periods would have a lot more variety, including lots of cartridge conversions and cap and balls still in use well in to the gate loading era just because of safety notches alone.

So to answer the question, then. No. It is not allowed.

[9245]

So to answer the question, then. No. It is not allowed.

Thankyou.  That is disappointing and makes zero sense when applied to weapons that can do so safely, and is immersion breaking in that case, but it is what it is I suppose.

[Johnson Barr]

If you want to use pre-1900 semi-auto pistols; try the Grand Army of the Frontier; aka GAF. Such new fangled shooters are allowed at GAF Muster skirmishes within the applicable rules for loading and re-loading.

[Professor Marvel]

<like button> for Johnson Barr and 9245.

I personally agree with 9245 regarding safety pins and slots
when fitted and used correctly the safety pins in colts C&B and notches in remmy 1858's
are erfectly safe, and allow one an extra round!

Thus allowing both historicity correctedness, safety, and the true
sense of "shoot what ya brung"

but I criticize SASS at the drop of a hat anyway LOL

BTW (off topic) --------------------
Foundrs ranch was last listed at

$1,950,000480 Acres
3 beds • 1 bath

but appears to be off market for now?

Lets have a bake sale!
We can use my barn!
lets see if we get 100 guys to chip in its only $2k each fora cowboy
timeshare, and we can make our own rules lol

---------------------back on topic

I actually agree with (245 on much of his distress with SASS
overly cautious and seemingly frivolous rules.

I reject SASS reality and substitue my own!

yhs
prof mumbles

[Tascosa Joe]

9245
I don't think anyone answered your question about conversions, we do allow conversions, and you can swap cylinders either percussion or cartridge.  For your character a slim jim holster would be most appropriate.
T-joe

[bear tooth billy]

9245, you can go to ncowsconvention.com and see everything you need to
about the convention, also my phone and email are on there.



                 BTB

[Black River Smith]

9245,

I was a member of NCOWS for 15 years from 1998 (4 years after it was started) to 2013.  I never belonged to a local Shooting Club or a formal NCOWS posse in my immediate location that whole time.  But through those 15 years, I was lucky to go to the National Conventions three times and shot at three National's events.  Through those individual events I met and talked to several members and made more computer friends, on this site.

I paid my dues each year and keep in touch with people through this site.  I discussed ideas for the club on here but never really saw physical outcomes of those discussions up-close and personal.

I did enjoy those years with the only CAS Organization I ever setout to join.  I still enjoy the Cowboy Way and history of the period.

If that is your true interest then I believe you will find it here and learn a lot more.

To answer all your possible questions about the Do's and Don't of NCOWS, I have attached a link to their By-laws.  Read it with an open mind for the history of the time of the OLD WEST and the ways we can mimic the experiences in our modern timeframe.    http://ncows.com/library/pdf/2022By-Laws.pdf

Enjoy your searching, learning and experiences -- Like I did.