.44-40 sizing troubles... rifle vs. revolver ?

[fortyshooter]

Well here's the story.... Factory Starline brass does not have the full profile of 44-40 brass where the case tapers down to the neck diameter. It is slimmed down in that transition so it will easily fit
most rifles and revolvers in 44-40. When I fire a factory round using Starline brass in my Winchester 1892 rifle made in 1895 the brass takes the shape of that chamber which has the full
case profile.
Now my Lee 44-40 sizing die does not resize that transition area but sizes the case just below that spot and down towards the case head. Trouble arises when I try to load the reloaded rounds in my
Uberti .44-40 Cimarron revolver. That transition tapered area in the chamber is tighter and not exactly the same. Factory ammo will slide right in and factory HSM ammo that I removed the undersized bullet and reloaded with a .430 bullet will also slide in the revolver chamber.  If I open up that area of the cylinder a couple thousandths then there is the chance rounds fired in the revolver might not chamber in the rifle even when resized. 
Is there a better sizing die that gives a correct case profile that would chamber in both rifle and revolver or do I have to keep the brass separate which would be a pain and so much for shooting same ammo in both rifle and revolver?

[Coal Creek Griff]

You are not the first person to encounter this problem. There has been significant discussion about this in the past. I would be loath to alter my firearms to make the ammunition fit. One solution, and it's the one that I used, is to mill or otherwise trim the bottom of your sizing die to allow the cases to go in a little further and bump the shoulder back. I was able to trim mine myself, but it would be an easy task for someone with a lathe.

Griff

[RoyceP]

I use the Lee 44 WCF dies and have a Uberti / Cimarron revolver that I fire it in. I have zero problems. Maybe your rounds are too long? Check vs the SAAMI specs.

[August]

SAMMI came into existence in the 1950's, over seventy-five years after the 44 Winchester Central Fire cartridge was invented.  So, firearms manufacturers are free to ream chambers to a wide range of configurations.   This is an issue that every shooter of any of the W.C.F. cartridges faces.  Griff offers the best solution with the suggestion that taking material off the bottom of the sizing die will allow the "shoulder" of the brass to be moved back.  And, this is something that practically every person who reloads W.C.F. cartridges has done. 

Redding and Hornady dies seem to be more refined with respect to the W.C.F. cartridges -- they may still need to have the deck shaved, but the profile is more universal than are the Lee dies.

Samuel Colt and Oliver Winchester hated each other.  Colt only reluctantly chambered SAA pistols in this caliber, and he messed with the dimensions when he did so.  You are the 'beneficiary' of their mutual animosity.

[King Medallion]

I used a set of Lyman dies for more than 25 years, never an problems at all. I recently bought a set of RCBS Cowboy dies on the cheap, and again, no problems whatsoever. I have 3 different rifles in 44-40 and 4 handguns, all good with reloads from either set. FWIW, I use Starline and Winchester brass.

[Coffinmaker]

Fourtyshooter 

As the other guys have mentioned, there is HUGE inconsistency with 44 WCF/44-40 chambering.  Not ALL 44 WCF chambers are alike.  EVERY manufacturer cuts the chambers to different dimensions.  This has been a problem since the animosity between S. Colt and O. Winchester and the inconsistencies between the manufacturers of reloading dies.  Keeping it simple:  Your Stuck

The only practical solution is to alter your dies, or shop around for a die set that will resize to a dimension that works.  Coal Creek's suggestion is probably the best low cost option.  Other wise, mooch different dies from other shooting partners until you run into a resizing die that works.  Then you have to find a bullet diameter that will work in both/all.  Ain't WCF fun!!

[fortyshooter]

Talked to the Lee Precision tech guy today and he said send him some fired brass out of both guns and run a couple thru the sizer die to send along also. They will modify the die to correct
the problem free of charge. So I shoot some HSM ammo today which is the Starline brass.  The guy also said that Uberti machines their 44-40 cylinder chambers on the small side and the shoulder not placed correctly according to  specs.

[River Rat]

Samuel Colt and Oliver Winchester hated each other.  Colt only reluctantly chambered SAA pistols in this caliber, and he messed with the dimensions when he did so.  You are the 'beneficiary' of their mutual animosity.

Samuel Colt died in 1862, well before the SAA was born or the .44-40 cartridge. But I have no trouble believing that Colt (the company not the man) may have used dimensions different from Winchester when they chambered the SAA for the .44 WCF.

[RoyceP]

SAMMI came into existence in the 1950's, over seventy-five years after the 44 Winchester Central Fire cartridge was invented.  So, firearms manufacturers are free to ream chambers to a wide range of configurations.   This is an issue that every shooter of any of the W.C.F. cartridges faces.  Griff offers the best solution with the suggestion that taking material off the bottom of the sizing die will allow the "shoulder" of the brass to be moved back.  And, this is something that practically every person who reloads W.C.F. cartridges has done. 

Redding and Hornady dies seem to be more refined with respect to the W.C.F. cartridges -- they may still need to have the deck shaved, but the profile is more universal than are the Lee dies.

Samuel Colt and Oliver Winchester hated each other.  Colt only reluctantly chambered SAA pistols in this caliber, and he messed with the dimensions when he did so.  You are the 'beneficiary' of their mutual animosity.

Uberti uses SAAMI specs. So what are you talking about?

[Coffinmaker]

  RoyceP 

Sorry Royce.  Not the case.  Uberti uses SAAMI specs in name only.  There are vast differences in Uberti WCF chambers between Rifle and Revolver and there are vast differences between the various manufacturers whom all claim SAAMI specs.

It is indeed a Krap Shoot whether a specific Case/Bullet/Size Die combination will correctly chamber.  It is also painfully obvious the manufacturers of reloading dies all have different measuring tools as the dies are not created equal.  Burma Shave

[August]

My 45th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook, from 1970, lists the 44/40 as an 'Obsolete' cartridge.  This category contained those cartridges that had no consistent dimensions because their introduction and use preceded the establishment of industry standards by many decades.   The Notes section for the 44/40 contains the following statement:  "Individual tolerances vary greatly in rifles chambered for this cartridge.  Therefore, extreme care should be used in working up maximum loads."   

Just because I didn't know it when I got here doesn't mean it isn't true.

[fortyshooter]

Fixed it!   Few minutes on the grinder and then chamfer the entry with 45 degree carbide counter sink and done. Took .050 off and bottomed it on my shell holder 550B press and ran one thru.
Dropped right in the Cimarron cylinder. Thanks for the help guys!

[cpt dan blodgett]

I load 44-40 using lee dies they work fine for me using both new brass (taper) and fired with taper blown out and the very slight bottle neck.  One must use reasonable care when expanding to make sure the die enters into the case properly or you can screw up the case.  It also helps if your cases are reasonably close to same length plus minus a few thousands to ensure uniform crimps.  Not as critical if using factory crimp die.  My lee set the seating die only seats bullets and does not crimp one uses the 4th crimp die to crimp.  My Lee .357/.38spec die set does crimp and seat at same time.