38/40 primer problem

[King Medallion]

So I finally got to shoot my new to me USFA 38/40 this week. Shoots pretty much POA, a couple inches low. The problem I'm having is that the primers are backing out just enough to cause a little binding. My loads are not heavy, I load them for 800ish fps. The brass is new Starline. I did not resize them, but did run them thru the belling die and chamfered inside and outside the case mouth. The die set is RCBS Cowboy and a Redding profile crimp die. Bullets are Missouri 180g FN HT and Desperado 180gn FN. All round chamber with no issue.
All of the cases where primed using a new Lee hand held priming tool, the old original round tray type, (found a NOS at a gun show last year) the primers are fully seated properly. When fired, the primers all moved out a little, some out far enough to cause binding.

Any idea's as to why this is happening and what to do about it? Aside from this issue the gun is great!

[Abilene]

I'm thinking that not resizing the new brass is causing a lack of neck tension.

[Hair Trigger Jim]

What powder are you using for your "not heavy" 800 FPS loads?  My first thought is low pressure, and knowing the powder (and maybe the brand of primer) would be useful.

You may already be familiar with the low pressure/primer issue, but I'll describe it here in case somebody isn't.  When ignited, the primer creates a little explosion in the primer pocket that forces the cartridge forward and pushes the primer back out as far as possible, until the breech face stops it.  (Primers are powerful enough to propel a rubber or wax bullet without any powder at all, so don't discount them!)  This is normal.  But what normally happens next is that, when the powder charge in the cartridge ignites, the explosion not only pushes the bullet down the barrel, it pushes the cartridge case backward as far as possible, which has the effect of re-seating the primer flush with the case head.

Sometimes a low-pressure loading like those sometimes used in CAS will be insufficient to force the cartridge case all the way back against the breech face, leaving a protruding primer.

And a lack of neck tension, as suggested by Abilene, would exacerbate that problem.  Maybe even create it with an otherwise-fine load.

[King Medallion]

Here is the list of my test loads. I use Winchester Large Pistol primers.
6.5 W231
5.0 Red Dot
5.5 TiteGroup
5.6 Bullseye
6.9 Universal
5.5 700X
8.5 True Blue
15.0 5744 (lots of unburnt powder)
5.6 Trail Boss
7.5 Unique
I don't have a Chroney, so I'm just loading what the book Lyman Book says or the online manuals. not forum recipes.

[King Medallion]

I will definitely resize the next batch of brass. I have 2 more boxes primed, so I will remove the decapping pin 1st. All of the loads tested by and large shot pretty much the same. That front sight is hard to see tho. All rounds fired at 15 yards.

[King Medallion]

I find it odd that I've never had this problem before, as I have never resized new brass in any caliber, be it rifle or pistol calibers. Always ran them thru the belling die and chamfered, but never resized.

[Coffinmaker]

Hiya King 

I get to be a little Snarky here.  Just because you've been getting away with a mistake doesn't meant it isn't a mistake     ALL brandy new brass should be resized in the initial loading process.  Moving right along . . . . 

Hair Trigger Jim said it quite well.  Leaving out the "Physics" part tho.  It is after all the "Equal and Opposite" reaction we're reviewing here.  Insufficient neck tension is resulting in insufficient chamber pressure resulting in insufficient rearward thrust of the cartridge case which can be exacerbated with a light bullet.  Your other wonderment is also covered by "NO two guns have chambers exactly alike" and as such will not react same same 

I don't actually see your bullet selection as being too light.  I would first look to your cases and run a batch resized before loading and using a nice snug roll crimp although I am not familiar with your bullet choice, do they have a crimp groove??

[Major 2]

I experienced this in a 38 spcl. handload 3.2 Titegroup, 148 grain hollow base wadcutter.
I had de-primed my once fired brass off the press...thus I did not size.

1st issue was my Berry's Bullets copper plated, mic'ed at .357 just slipped in with finger pressure, not good.
My cast .360 hollow base seated but I did have some primers back out.

I seat the bullet 3/16" above the case mouth and used a light crimp

So, I pulled the de-priming pin and size the brass, same 3/16" above the case mouth and used a light crimp, both issues resolved.

I deduced the issue was not sizing the first lot (just 10 test rounds at first) now resolved.

Thanks!  Dakota Ike, he actually pointed out my mistake   

[King Medallion]

The bullets used are both .401 size, Missouri 180g FN Hi-Teck, and Desperado Cowboy 180g FN. Both have crimping grooves, and all load chamber fully. Next batch will be resized 1st to be sure.  As said earlier, I don't like hot load, as my hands hurt bad enough as it is, so I try to go middle of the road loads, trying for an average of 800ish fps.

[Johnson Barr]

Is that what the label says; .401 diameter or did you mic them to be sure? Most of my cast bullet suppliers tend to be a touch over on their label dimensions. And of course you can never go wrong slugging your barrel to see what bullet diameter it really needs. I always run commercial bullets through my Lee bullet sizer's whether a few samples mic out or not.

[Black River Smith]

Hi King,

To be a little more succinct for you about new Starline brass.  Last year I bought the large lots directly.  In those bags were small pamphlets stating directions for new bottle neck 'rifle' brass.  Let me say this was the first I ever heard this statement, because of buying only small lots from dealers.

"Suggested case preparations for bottle neck 'rifle' brass:   Starline suggests neck sizing or running the expander ball through the mouth inside and out prior to loading.  The expander ball works two-fold: it removes most of the corrosion inhibitor inside the case neck and it also makes the case mouth round for chamfering.

During the final polish process we treat the cases with a corrosion inhibitor which keeps the brass from tarnishing and also acts as a lubricant for the first loading.  This treatment is necessary for ease of priming and the sizing of new brass (standard case lubrication will still be necessary), but it can also reduce the tension.  Removing this coating from the brass is unnecessary, except for inside the neck.  Cleaning with stainless media can remove this inhibitor, making reloading a little more difficult.

Please note:  Lee collet sizing dies are not recommended for use on new/unfired rifle brass."  PHEW

Now, you're using a pistol like I would for the Starline brass I got this in, but I think I will follow these directions because I am loading to standard velocities. PS: I will also use the brass in rifles, also.

As far as your USFA Uberti pistol, I went back to the pictures you posted, and I do not see an image of the Recoil shield.  So, does your pistol have a primer(correction) firing pin bushing or not?  Is there a deep depression around the firing pin hole?  That could be the cause of the primer backing out or as stated above the inhibitor in the primer pocket.

Good luck with figuring this issue out.

[GaryG]

Check the recoil plate and make sure it's flush recoil shield.  If it's slightly below the recoil shield, the primers may not reseat.