Got the Belgian Spencer

[Johnson Barr]

Wonderfully done close shots of the action. My wonderment is the interesting 'plate' addition to the magazine retainer bar. My exposure to original Spenser's is limited. Is that plate common to the original rifles and carbines? I can see the plate addition as a dandy way to load and eject cartridges loaded singly over the top. A sort of ramp for positive loading and ejection. Was there ever a magazine 'cut-off' option? The 'ramp' it seems would work well for single shot work while holding the magazine rounds in reserve. Just a thought.   

[John Brooder]

Johnson Barr,
Thank you for the reply.  Lookup "Stabler cutoff."  It was an early attempt to make the Spencer a single shot, either before or after the magazine was put into play. Apparently Spencer made a cutoff as well.
Best,
John

[John Brooder]

These are not mine but show the Stabler well.

[El Supremo]

Hello:

There are two common types of magazine cutoffs on Spencer's.

One is the type shown on the Belgian one here and some U.S. ones, which takes the form of a wider cartridge feed guide that pivots slightly to one side, but also acts as a ctg. guide.
The other is the Stabler, that John shows. The lever on the bottom of the trigger bar pivots to limit the lower block travel. The rear profile of the block assembly used with a Stabler is usually a bit different than the non Stabler one. Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Johnson Barr]

Thanks for the 'cut-off' pics. Probably not a retro fit for my early Armi-Sport Chiappa carbine. But I do like the retainer bar plate add on. Might be just the trick for simpler single shot work. Believe I'll order a spare bar from Liz in Columbus for possible modification.

[DJ]

Here are a couple photos of the Spencer cutoff (as opposed to the Stabler cutoff).
The little "fork" pivots about an eighth of an inch on the cartridge guide to block the "tooth" on the lower breechblock and keep it from opening all the way.

Spencer cutoff disengaged.


Spencer cutoff engaged.


It seems kind of fragile for a military gun--I have seen cartridge guides missing the little fork, and I suspect that dinky little screw is prone to failure.

[DJ]

I dunno why it posted the photos twice--sorry 'bout that.  But the bottom set zooms real big.

[DeaconKC]

Sad on the screws, but at least they look like they can be hammered and dressed.

[DJ]

This gun came to me with some "issues."  In addition to buggered screws, it had some wood problems and someone had filed off the serial numbers on both barrel and receiver.  It's an 1865 Navy model--I suspect someone at some point was trying to mimic an M1860 Navy.  I managed to recover the serial number with one of those forensic acid kits and --horrors--stamped the correct number next to the vague images of the originals.  At the same show where I bought the rifle, my better half spotted an "interesting, but I don't know what it fits" bayonet that I believe is the correct bayonet for this rifle--it fits nicely.  All in all it's a nice shooter at an appropriate price point.

[DJ]

Getting back to the Belgian Spencer, I would be interested to see details of the front and bottom of the breechblock.  The half-moon cutout below the firing pin looks like it was for the retaining screw found on an original, but there is no corresponding cutout on the pin itself.  The slot for your firing pin also doesn't go all the way to the front of the block.  I wonder if yours was made from a partially completed block, or if it had a piece added to fill in the front portion of the firing pin slot.

[John Brooder]

Please forgive me but I am foggy this morning.  I'm not sure what you need to see.  The 3 yr old has been up sick since 3 this morning and is home today ruining a planned day at the range shooting the Belgian.  I'm barely hanging on with a coffee IV.

This is firing pin retracted



This is firing pin extended



And a shot of the block from the rear

[DJ]

Thanks for the photos.  It looks like an original upper rimfire breechblock was used--that would account for the half-moon screw cutout on the right side.  For conversion to center fire, it looks like they dovetailed in a chunk of steel at the front of the breechblock to fill the rimfire channel and provide a breech face with the central hole. 

Since it apparently doesn't just lift out, I wonder if there is a screw on the underside that somehow retains the firing pin.

If you ever decide to disassemble the breechblock, please post photos, as there are a number of people who would be curious about how the center fire conversion was done.  However, I am not suggesting that you remove the dovetailed piece at the front of the breechblock--that looks to be permanently in place and you wouldn't want to drive it out.

[John Brooder]

DJ,
Thank you for your response. I won't be taking it apart for awhile.

I was able to get out and fire the Belgian for the first time on Thursday.  Ben Avery Range, 58 degrees with wind gusts up to 20mph - "cold" by Phoenix standards. I can hear you Northern, Midwestern and Eastern guys cussing from here. This was more a function test than accuracy etc. so distance was 25 yards.  Fired 14 cartridges  - seven from Kevin/El Supremo and 7 that I acquired.  Kevin's were composed of RMC brass, Swiss 3F powder and 350gr cast bullet.  The others were Starline brass, FFFG powder, and 450gr cast bullet. All the cartridges fired.  The Starline brass would not eject but the RMC brass ejected every time (larger rim).  The two flyers that don't show up on target were completely my fault.  The trigger pull was insane - I have never felt one this heavy.  Recoil was greater than I expected but chalk that up to my inexperience with the cartridge.  The Belgian got a lot of attention from other shooters and Rangemasters.

Six shots with RMC brass - sent the first shot really high sighting on bullseye- with the other six I had to aim at lower target bullseye to get hits on upper target.



Six shots with Starline brass - lost a seventh shot way to the left - not sure what happened -  I had to aim at 6 o'clock to get any strikes on same target



Fired cartridges - Starline on left and RMC on right - Starline was dirtier - RMC appeared to have a very slight bulge at center - don't have the experience to interpret this.  El Supremo gave his opinion from photos and, as usual, it was very informative.  I will not repeat it here in case he wants to post it to SSS. 






The good news is the carbine functions just fine even after 151 years.

John