44wcf revolver with large throats

LonesomePigeon · May 29, 2022, 08:34:44 PM

I have been reloading for a Uberti Flattop Target SAA replica in .44-40 that so far has not given me very good accuracy. Recently I was able to borrow some pin gauges and found the chamber throats to measure .431".

Is it foolish to hope for good accuracy using any mold that is less than .431"? Most of the commercial molds seem to be .429" with a couple being .430" at the biggest.

Coffinmaker · May 31, 2022, 01:50:52 PM

Lonesome

Before trying to figure anything out, you first need to know what the Bore Diameter is in the Grooves. You will actually need bullets cast to the Bore diameter plus one or two thou.

There isn't much "jump" from case mouth to Forcing Cone with a 44-40 so a slightly oversize throat isn't going to have much if any effect. Undersize throats are more of a problem.

Play Safe Out There

Bryan Austin · June 01, 2022, 11:35:04 AM

Define poor accuracy

LonesomePigeon · June 01, 2022, 03:27:13 PM

Coffinmaker, I will have to cast up some pure lead slugs next time I am doing roundballs. Right now I have harder lead in the pot and it would not be good for slugging a bore.

Bryan I have tried many different loads with this gun. The one factory ammo was terrible, I forget what brand it was but it made like 8" groups at 15 yards off a sandbag. With various handloads I am usually getting 3" to 4" groups at 15 yards. I would consider good accuracy to be one that consistently produces sub 2" at 25 yards. Based on the groups I am getting at 15 yards I have not even tried 25 yards.

Here is an example of what I would call excellent accuracy. Shot at 25 yards off a sandbag with a Pietta "Shooter's Model" 1858 Remington cap n' ball.

mtmarfield · February 15, 2023, 10:40:34 PM

Greetings LP!

Although I'm a bit new to the .44WCF in pistols, I've had some interesting revelations. Almost a year ago, I acquired a Taylor's ( Uberti ) "Remington NMA Cartridge Conversion" chambered for the .44WCF; I intended this to be a "kinda contemporary" companion sidearm for my Uberti Henry chambered for the same cartridge. The bore / groove dimensions are .420" - .430" respectively; the cylinder leades average to .433". The absolute worst performance in my NMA was with LazerCast .427-200FP; I believe that I hit my target three times at fifteen yards. This same handload was very nice out of my Henry, giving 1.5" / 2" at fifty yards.
My cast bullets were a different story; for my Henry, I avoid casting alloys harder than 15BHN, and try to stay closer to WW / 12BHN. Sizing to .429" for the Henry and NMA, I've gotten far better results with the Accurate #43-215C in both; the RCBS #44-200FP also works well. For cartridges specifically for the NMA, I'm currently experimenting with the Ideal / Lyman #429348 180gr Wadcutter, lightly crimped into the top lubegroove. The samples that I'm using up are too hard at 18BHN, but for my next batch, I'm aiming for 11BHN ( "range scrap" ) or so, hoping to get obturation in the cylinder leade. Although too hard, these wadcutters are showing great promise, giving me about 1.5" at 15yds, with two bullet holes making a 'slight oval' on the target paper. Of course, my eyeballs were screwed in extra - tight that evening...

Keep Us Posted!

M.T.Marfield
2-15-23

Navy Six · February 16, 2023, 07:31:30 AM

LonesomPigeon, you mentioned the limited sizing of commercial molds. If you are open to obtaining a new mold, Accurate Molds has several suitable for your purpose. The nice thing about Accurate Molds is they will make the mold of your choice to whatever size you would like, within reason of course. Making the mold for .431 or .432 should be no issue. As mentioned by mtmarfield, I also use their #43-215C with excellent results in all my 44-40s using black powder. Using that diameter with a soft alloy should go a long way to making your Uberti shoot better.

Bryan Austin · February 16, 2023, 09:06:58 AM

Quote from: LonesomePigeon on June 01, 2022, 03:27:13 PM
Here is an example of what I would call excellent accuracy. Shot at 25 yards off a sandbag with a Pietta "Shooter's Model" 1858 Remington cap n' ball.

Probably need to get a 44 Special cylinder for that kind of accuracy

LongWalker · February 16, 2023, 03:32:39 PM

The cylinder throat dimensions sound ideal to me, but I've got an old Ideal mould that casts 20:1 at .4315. Getting accuracy with the .44-40 like you got with your Remington is going to take some work, it is just easier to get good results with a .44 Special.

I had a cylinder custom chambered for the .44-40 once, with tight chambers and .431" throats (to go with the .430" barrel). Best results were with compressed BP and unsized 200 grain bullets from my .4315 mould, lubed with SPG or my homemade BP lube. Brass was never full-length sized: I neck sized only, used a Lyman M-die to just barely expand the mouths for the bullets, and used a "medium" crimp. Even with the custom cylinder, I had one chamber that wouldn't accept unsized brass fired in the other cylinders. That was the only 44-40 I ever had that matched the accuracy I got with the same gun with a .44 Special cylinder.

Bryan Austin · February 16, 2023, 04:45:04 PM

I am happy with 4" groups at 25 yards with my 44-40 revolvers, and 4" groups at 100 yards with my rifles.

The 44 Special and 44 Russian sure shoot good

LongWalker · February 16, 2023, 05:55:45 PM

Quote from: Bryan Austin on February 16, 2023, 04:45:04 PM
I am happy with 4" groups at 25 yards with my 44-40 revolvers, and 4" groups at 100 yards with my rifles.

The 44 Special and 44 Russian sure shoot good

Four inch ten shot groups at 25 yards are better than I ever got with an unmodified 44-40 revolver. It seemed to come down to chamber dimensions and form, and the relationship of cylinder throat measurements to bore diameter. I think LonesomePigeon's revolver could be a good shooter, but it might be a pain to load for. Depending on his cylinder, he may not be able to chamber a round loaded with bullets that match his cylinder. But it could be fun trying, and a match-grade 44-40 might be a wonderful sleeper for side bets!

This bullet should match his cylinder dimensions, and wonder of wonders in today's world, it is in stock: https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/bullet-moulds/432/432-216-rf-z1/432-200-rf-3-cavity-pb-44-40/

Drydock · February 17, 2023, 08:43:03 AM

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-215C

This is the Accurate design mentioned, and it is indeed excellent! Run it in all my .44s.

LonesomePigeon · February 17, 2023, 09:07:08 AM

Thanks for all the replies. I have just bought four new molds from MP Molds, two for 45 Colt, one for .44-40 and one for .38 Special. One of the .45's is a hollow base as is the .38. The .44-40 is a 225 grain I think was actually meant for .44 Special but I am going to use it in the .44-40.

I bought all these molds before reading most of these replies. I must have excessive mold acquisition syndrome because now it looks like I have to buy another one, or possibly two.

Bryan Austin · February 17, 2023, 09:21:34 AM

Quote from: LongWalker on February 16, 2023, 05:55:45 PM
Four inch ten shot groups at 25 yards are better than I ever got with an unmodified 44-40 revolver. It seemed to come down to chamber dimensions and form, and the relationship of cylinder throat measurements to bore diameter. I think LonesomePigeon's revolver could be a good shooter, but it might be a pain to load for. Depending on his cylinder, he may not be able to chamber a round loaded with bullets that match his cylinder. But it could be fun trying, and a match-grade 44-40 might be a wonderful sleeper for side bets!

This bullet should match his cylinder dimensions, and wonder of wonders in today's world, it is in stock: https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/bullet-moulds/432/432-216-rf-z1/432-200-rf-3-cavity-pb-44-40/

Yes it would...I would love to see someone create a tac driver out of a 44-40 revolver. I tried a while back with actually modifying the revolver itself and the best I could get with 10 shot groups was 4"

LongWalker · February 17, 2023, 12:14:08 PM

I think for CAS, a load that will go 4" at 25 yards from a pistol and 4" at 100 yards from a rifle would be the cat's pajamas! I never managed to get a load that would do both. I "cheated" by tuning my load to one (rebuilt and tuned) revolver. . . those loads did about 12" at 100 yards from the El Tigre I had at the time.

Bryan Austin · February 17, 2023, 02:06:07 PM

Oh, I certainly can't do it in a rifle without a scope now days....and the 25 yard pistol is about the same...lol

All of my are here, The Good, The Bad and even The Ugly...for all to laugh at! https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/accuracytargets/targets-load-development

Coffinmaker · February 17, 2023, 07:01:32 PM

Oh Lonesome One

I'm not going to be a lot of hep for the 44-40 as it's a cartridge I don't shoot nor load for. However, I think you'll find most newly made .44s subscribe to a .429 bore (across the groves), which makes a .430 or .431 Bullet quite viable. I do understand that many chambers won't allow that dimension, but it sounds like you're just mite.

I am also in the same camp as Bryan Austin. .44 Special and .44 Russian are really nifty cartridges. I added .44 Cylinders and Barrels to my Open Tops some lustrum ago to match up with my 1866 .44 Special. Added a short round carrier Block and have shot .44 Russians in the '66 since new. Oddly, both barrels for my Open Tops are actually marked "44-40 Cartridge" though Uberti have never chambered the Open Top in 44-40. Shoot Russians in those guns too, to approximate an original loading of 44 Henry Flat and 44 Stetson. Fun Stuff.

People ARE Hazardous to Yer Health

470Evans · February 23, 2023, 06:04:41 AM

I have had success with cast bullets measuring the throats with - pin gauges and sizing the bullets to throat diameter or slightly larger. This has worked well in multiple vintage and modern revolvers. I don't focus on the bore diameter as my experience has shown the chamber throats are where accurate loads begin.

In the case of my 1906 Frontier Six Shooter, the throats measure .428.

I cast my bullets, powder coated them and then sized them to .427, .428 and .429 and went to the range. The gun shot best with the .429 bullets. I use a 16-1 alloy and size them in sizing dies purchased from NOE molds. I have found that the expander provided in many die sets is too small depending on the guns throat diameter. So I had RCBS send me the expander plug from their Cowboy die sets in 45 Colt, 44-40 and 44 Special and that makes a difference.

In the 45 ACP for a Colt 1917 with .456 throats, I use an expander from a 455 die set when loading for it.

I haven't found the 44-40 to be any better or worse than 45 Colt, 455 Eley, 45 ACP, etc when I follow the above procedures.

This is just my experience, yours may differ.