1866 octagon barrel tapers

[KWK]

An area library has a copy of Madis' The Winchester Book, and in it is a picture of an 1866 I find particularly handsome, s/n 121,902. The magazine tube does not come through the forend cap, and he says with this style, the barrel was given a more rapid taper than those with full magazines.

Has anyone come across the dimensions of the standard and finer tapers for octagon barrels on the 1866? Thanks.

[dusty texian]

KWK you may try asking that question on the Winchester Collectors Forum . A lot of knowledge there .,,,DT

[Coffinmaker]

  PLUS ONE for Dusty Texian   

I must admit to being completely ignorant of a separate barrel dimension for any limited production Winchester Octagonal barrel.  Not to say "never never" as Winchester did provide almost anything you could want on special order.

My best suggestion would be to ask around on the Winchester Collectors forums as well.

[KWK]

Thanks gents. I did ask there a few days ago but appear to have stumped the experts. I'd hoped in some other book or article Madis might have listed dimensions.

No big deal. I have, of course, been thinking about rebarreling an Uberti to try to recreate that rifle. The forend cap would be a pill, though, for it would have to be hogged out of a block.

[Abilene]

I looked for my Pirkle book when I went home this weekend, but couldn't find it.     Sorry.
It has lots of dimensions.  Some other folks here have that one, perhaps somebody can look.

[dusty texian]

I looked in the Pirkle book and did not find  taper dimensions listed for the 66 . He does list taper dimensions for the 73 and does list a rapid taper as an option . This is only a guess , my thoughts are they were still building 1866 Models while building 1873 Models so my guess would be if they could or would build a rapid taper in a 73 they could do the same for a 66 . I have not studied the 66 or 73 much so I could be way off . Hope this helps .  ,,,DT

[KWK]

Thank you, dusty texan. I've been curious about what's in Pirkle's books, and since Amazon only wants $6 for the Kindle version, I've bought a copy of the first volume. I see he does have dimensions for the early '73, and I suspect Winchester would have used the same barrel contours in the '66 from the same years. Interestingly, Pirkle doesn't show the forend cap on that rifle pictured in Madis' book.

late edit: Doh! I see in the text near the end of the 1866 chapter Madis describes the barrel tapers. The numbers don't quite match those in Pirkle, but it's enough to work from. Also, using the high resolution photos provided by "Winchester" of their 1866 from Miroku, it's clear they are using a much more rapid taper with these than with the originals. Uberti is closer to the originals, but I like the balance of the Miroku I handled last year.

[dusty texian]

Your gonna enjoy that book , I know I do . I looked at the 1866 rifle you mentioned in the Madis book , very nice rifle . The forend cap does look  different than others . If I were to try and duplicate it , I would start with a standard and plug the Magazine tube hole with brass and braze the whole thing up . If you do that project I hope you keep us posted .   ,,,,,DT

[KWK]

That rifle has been on my mind for some time. I've long admired the '66 as The Original, but I consider the 1894 Marlin the final word in such rifles. I'd planned to have a custom '94 made up, but the supply of those has dried up around here. So, I'm reconsidering doing the '66 instead.

Madis and Pirkle both note Winchester usually did what you suggest, just plug the hole in the standard nose cap, but I really like the shape of that odd one shown by Madis. One thought I had was to dispense with the nose cap. The earliest '66 didn't use one, and I could just shape the forend to match the contour of the one I like in Madis. There was no such original, but an Uberti isn't an original anyway.

I haven't committed to either project as yet. I will promise to show it off if I do go with the '66. Thanks again.

[KWK]

As luck would have it, I came across an example of the '66 I was talking about on an auction site a while back. I hope the auction company won't mind if I post a reduced resolution copy of one of the photos they offered.

Last month I had a chance to look at a rack full of Uberti 1860, 1866, and 1873 rifles. One thing which stood out was how variable is the workmanship on these rifles. The carriers could sit above, below, or right at the level of the bottom of the receiver. There were also a surprising number of instances where the recesses in the receiver for the head of a screw was machined oval instead of round.

It makes it really tough to order a '66 just to get a receiver for a custom rifle. Besides, I kind of have the hots for a Henry these days...

[greyhawk]

  PLUS ONE for Dusty Texian   

I must admit to being completely ignorant of a separate barrel dimension for any limited production Winchester Octagonal barrel.  Not to say "never never" as Winchester did provide almost anything you could want on special order.

My best suggestion would be to ask around on the Winchester Collectors forums as well.

Many moons ago there was a one legged gunsmith in our local town - we used to annoy him looking for winchester bits - he was primarily a shotgun smith - but under his bench a LOT of stuff had accumulated - one visit we unearthed a mostly complete 92 action - what about a barrel?? - yeah scratch around down the end there near the bench leg theres an old barrel - yep got it ! - we bargained him to 8 bucks for the action and he gave us the barrel (1964 - fresh outta school, my wage for the week was $12.50) that old barrel was a sewer pipe inside - clean exterior - kings improvement writing on it so was a '73 or coulda even been from a '66 - 24 inch half octagon half round - a heavy barrel - never seen another like it - most are much slimmer profile. Rifling was non existent at the muzzle end so I figured cut it back - took half the round off and ended with a 18 inch trapper length tube. The round half the length of the octagon kept things in proportion, put a short forend and a shorter rifle stock on it ended up with a cool little short rifle that had a nice heft to it and was smaller than it looked. Dont think I have the bit I chopped off but the dimensions of that old barrel (since replaced) would be interesting. Kinda wish I didnt cut it - would be an ideal candidate for a proper reline. Ah well! if we knew then what we know now .....................................................
Merry christmas all   

[nativeshootist]

As luck would have it, I came across an example of the '66 I was talking about on an auction site a while back. I hope the auction company won't mind if I post a reduced resolution copy of one of the photos they offered.

Last month I had a chance to look at a rack full of Uberti 1860, 1866, and 1873 rifles. One thing which stood out was how variable is the workmanship on these rifles. The carriers could sit above, below, or right at the level of the bottom of the receiver. There were also a surprising number of instances where the recesses in the receiver for the head of a screw was machined oval instead of round.

It makes it really tough to order a '66 just to get a receiver for a custom rifle. Besides, I kind of have the hots for a Henry these days...

I know cimarron has a custom shop too, might as well give them a call and see if they can do a have mag for you, not sure if you're going to have a taper barrel though.

[Coffinmaker]

  Well Heck 

I have seen Half Magazine rifles from Uberti.  Those were all '73s.  Haven't seen a Half Mag '66 though.  Not that they haven't been made special order.  The '73s however, had the Half Mag protruding through the Fore End Cap.  The cap wasn't solid.

WaBac (thank you Sherman and the Perfesser) I built several Half Mag '66 rifles for a couple of customers.  Those that I built also had the magazine protruding through the Fore End Cap (sorry, never thought to take tin types).

It shouldn't be all that hard to make a plug for the Brass Fore End Cap and shorten a Magazine to fit.  Could make a nifty little brush rifle.  Wouldn't hold a lot of cartridges but one doesn't need a lot for a hunting rifle.  Of course, if it was built on a .45 rifle and used C45S cartridges . . . . .

Play Safe Out There

[Buck Stinson]

Winchester made two "standard" weights in the model 1873.  They did this in both round and octagon barreled rifles with 24" barrels. One was 23/32" across the flat and the other was 27/32".   It doesn't seem like much, but you can spot the difference between these two barrels easily, when looking at them side by side and the difference between the physical weight of the two guns is dramatic.  I have an original 1866 octagon barrel rifle in high condition, made in 1869.  The barrel at the muzzle measures 27/32".  My guess is that the half mag '66 probably has the 23/32" barrel, which would give it a bit more taper.

[KWK]

Thanks, Buck Stinson. Your muzzle dimensions are close to what Pirkle gave for the 1st model '73, and I can believe there was some variation at the factory. Indeed it doesn't seem like much, but the cross sectional area (and the weight) varies with the square of the diameter. The "Winchester" rifles by Miroku have an even faster taper, and they are very lively handling.

As I recall, Madis wrote the half magazine models usually had the fast taper, and the photos I've seen over the years (auction houses, Merz, etc) look as if this is so.

Pirkle also mentions a heavy contour besides the regular and fast.

nativeshootist, I think Cimarron just passes your order through to the custom shop at Uberti. Taylor's will do the same, but the available options are limited, and a half mag isn't one of the current options.

Coffinmaker, Madis said the factory would later just plug the normal, stamped forend cap, but the early ones I think he wrote (I don't have a copy) were cast, and the photos show a different contour. One worry in trying to plug the hole would be getting a matching brass/bronze, since the color varies some with alloys, and I don't know what Uberti is using.

[Buck Stinson]

One thing to keep in mind about the original Winchester 1866 model rifles, the half mag guns are EXTREMELY rare.  These were never a standard production model and were only available as a special order.  For that reason, very, very few were ever made.