The banning of shortstrokes

[Ornery Orr]

I'm not here to say yay or nay on the way the vote went.  How many of you out there think that people will actually replace their modified toggles with factory ones?  Good pards or not, people are people, Always have been, always will be.  If it's not going to be governed then why even vote on it?  I happen to know a certain person (me) who's wife had a short stroke installed in her '73 because her arms are short.  It only shortens the throw by 1/2".  According to what some have posted in the past, some original toggle link rifles had varying throw distances.  It would be difficult to look at an aftermarket toggle link rifle and compare it to say, for instance, the match directors original rifle and tell that person they're in violation and can't shoot with your club.
   Maybe I'm way off base here, I've been known to do that before, but it seems to me that there are more important issues like GUS CREASES!

[Ornery Orr]

Yeah Joss, I know, I've read them.  I just don't see the point of making a ruling on something that won't be enforced.  I feel that minimum velocity limits on ammo would have been a more worthwhile discussion topic.  I know, I know, it's already been beat to death also. 

[Kayleen]

  I have to agree with OO on this. We have seen it quite often in the past. We have a ruling and then it is not enforced. Reasons for that vary froom not wanting to hurt someone's feelings to "if we say something, this person or family will no longer come to our shoots". Flimsy as these may be it does happen. Dead horse,yes this topic is.
  If we make these rules then they NEED to be FOLLOWED by every POSSE.
No, I do not have a short stroke in my rifle, wouldn't dream of it.
Kayleen

[French Jack]

OO, naturally I cannot speak for other posses, but I can tell you this:  If anyone shows up at our shoots with an obviously shortened action on their rifle, they will not be allowed to shoot it.  No more, no less. 
I also agree with you that there are probably more important items on the agenda.  This was as much for a stand on the "moral high ground" as anything, before we become swept away by an equipment race.  This dead equine has been thoroughly chastened.  Enough said.  Have a Merry Christmas.

[Ornery Orr]

French Jack said it best.  Merry Christmas Everybody!

[Grizzle Bear]

Talk about "Ghosts of Congresses' Past!"

I am stumped by the notion, put forth by several people, that this can't or won't be enforced.

Easiest thing in the world to check.  My handy-dandy high-tech plastic protractor says that the lever arc of several originals and reproductions I have tested varies from 79 to 82 degrees.  Am I going to call a short-stroke on somebody because their rifle has only 75 degrees of lever arc?  Nope. 

Am I going to call a short-stroke on somebody whose rifle lever only travels 60 degrees or less?  Yep.  But that will be immediately visible, even without a protractor.

Ornery, if the short-stroke in your wife's rifle only shortened the throw a half inch, did it really help her any?  Shortening the buttstock might have been a better idea.  I think it still says something in the By-Laws about NCOWS accomodating people with physical problems.  For a person of really small stature, I wouldn't have a problem with a shortened butt (external modification) or even a short-stroke lever throw.

Think this horse is finally dead, boys.  Best shovel some dirt over it afore it starts to stink!

Grizzle Bear

[Silver Creek Slim]

Here's a bag of lime, Griz. 

Slim

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy Slim,

I think yer a little late with the lime.  I kin smell it even thru this here internet gizzmo!   We need a back hoe and a deeeeep hole..

[Delmonico]

Griz you have the wisdom of Solomon, a short stroke that ain't got a shorter stroke ain't really a short stroke.  Entomb it in concrete and yer now entitled to cut someone in half with yer sword. Got anyone in mind?

[St. George]

In the Army - 'you' were also in charge of that 'short arm' - and modifying it beyond factory specs wasn't something that was 'command-approved', either...
No 'after-market' add-ons were well thought of.

In the long run - it all came down to 'personal responsibility' - keeping it in good working order - unmodified beyond armory specifications and smoothly functioning - with no additional competition-based accouterments...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[US Scout]

St George,

Good one!!!

       

[Grizzle Bear]

RCJ:

Can't have anything made outa plastic in NCOWS.  Guess I'll have to make a brass one!

GB

[Ornery Orr]

I do believe the shortened stock would fall under the external modifications guideline.  Yes, the 1/2 did make a difference for her as far as being able to keep the "bobble" out of the front sight when cycling the action, and no, she doesn't have what I would consider to be physical problems.
One more thing.  What kind of certification does one need to become a self proclaimed expert on what is considered to be short stroked and what isn't??? 

SO, Grizzle Bear, since I happen to have a degenerative hip, if I get documentation from my doctor, does that mean I can use my guncart if I come down to one of your shoots?  Since NCOWS accomodates physical problem and all.

[Grizzle Bear]

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear.

Even though some might consider it an "external modification" I don't have any problem with someone shortening a buttstock to fit their stature.

I tried to let some of the older, gimped up shooters use gun carts, but people took advantage of my kindness.  What we do now is provide a chair or bench for folks to sit on while waiting to shoot.  And as I have a bad back, plus hips and knees, I am often sitting on one of them myself.

Grizzle Bear

[Major Matt Lewis]

Наилучшим образом, Этот вопрос некоторо был побит к смерти. В словах Austin Powers, "почему не будьте вы плашка?" Если вы идете пойти через тревогу иметь пропуск съезда что-то, то вы должны принудить их.

St. George & US Scout,

Когда я был на лагере Lejeune этим летом, морские пехотинцы позволяли grunts доработать и "trick из" их оружий для идя Ирака. Я считал это довольно отличающимся от когда я пошел к персидский залива назад в 1991.

[Black River Smith]

I have a 14" pull compared to the standard 13".  I modified my custom Marlin (created in 1992) to that 14" pull and it works great but I just would not do the same to my original Win 73 or repro Win 66.  So I live with the shorter pull.

I do not see a cut and replaced butt plate as a drastic mod.   Now if you started putting in a pistol hole grip or finger grooves on the forarm or installing a scope mounts or a large circle loop lever, then those would be an external mod in my opinion.

If you are worried about resale, well then that is a different story.


Black River Smith

[Lone Gunman]

I do believe the shortened stock would fall under the external modifications guideline. 

That would be a good point to make...over on the SASSwire, since it's a SASS rule NOT an NCOWS rule. 

Please indulge me while I quote myself from a couple of months ago:

"Internal vs External modifications".  The single greatest improvement we could make in our online discussions of NCOWS rules is to actually refer to NCOWS rules during the discussions. The 'internal/external mod' rule is a SASS rule, not NCOWS. Everyone who posts on these forums has a computer, our rules are readily available at http://www.ncows.org/Bylaws.htm  Interlacing SASS rules in NCOWS discussions just confuses the dog poop out of folks...please don't do it!

[Will Ketchum]

Well said George.  Some need reminding from time to time.

Will Ketchum

[Black River Smith]

Well stated LG.  I do like quoting the by-laws, sometimes, but it sound better coming from you.


Black River Smith