1858 conversions vs 1875s

Whiptail Moses · October 15, 2020, 11:06:03 AM

Are there any major performance differences between using a pair of 45lc 1858 conversions (with loading gate and ejector) or a pair of 1875s?
Or is it just about ergonomics?

I am interested in shooting Classic Cowboy Frontier Cartridge Duellist.

hellgate · October 15, 2020, 12:30:32 PM

I had a Kirst conversion for a while on my Uberti NMA and it just wasn't as "slick" in function. I was concerned the softer parts (especially the hammer face) might get dented by the firing pin and then not be able to go back to percussion. The 1875 was made from the beginning for cartridges and ought to be a smoother action. I had an 1875 fro a while and can't remember if it has a cylinder bushing to prevent binding. Fouling can gum up a '58 for sure.

Whiptail Moses · October 15, 2020, 12:47:58 PM

I think the from-the-factory conversions are made of the same steel as the '75s and are no longer marked "black powder only" nor can they be switched to percussion. Don't know about the hammers, though.

I'm leaning towards using a pair of 5.5 outlaws on the hips, and sometimes mixing it up by replacing the weak side with my current 8" Pietta w/ cartridge cylinder worn cross-draw.

Marshal Will Wingam · October 15, 2020, 02:34:52 PM

The main difference I found is that the NMA (incorrectly called an 1858) with a converson cylinder has a shorter hammer stroke than the 1875/1890 models. I had a pair of the BP pistols I was using and expected the 1875 to feel similar so I bought one with the intention of getting another one for a pair of match pistols. I was disappointed and eventually I got rid of it. I can't vouch for the MNAs factory conversions that are available.

Whiptail Moses · October 15, 2020, 02:44:20 PM

Interesting, Will.
One of the things I like about the NMA is how my recoil seems just enough to get the hammer back to my thumb, and then I can let the weight of the pistol pull it down and it cocks itself and ends up perfectly level. That might be more fiddly with a longer hammer pull.

Seems an extra step in ejecting too, have to loosen the rammer, twist the extractor to unlock it, then relock the rammer.
Not a big deal.

As for the 1875, after reading a bunch of posts, yes it has a bushing, yes it can seize up, moreso than the SAA, but either/or using big lube bullets, wiping the cylinder face down every so often, and using mobil 1 synthetic grease on the cylinder pin seems to help.
I wonder if it's less of a problem with 777 (which I love) or APP (which I've never tried).

Coffinmaker · October 15, 2020, 03:17:30 PM

Whiptail

Allow me to jump in here. Heck, I'm gonna jump in anyway. CAVEAT: Plain and simple. Remingtons DO NOT play well with BP or Subs. PERIOD. Next: Classic Cowboy and Frontier Cartridge Dualist are two separate and distinct categories. You can, however, use BP in ANY category.

Remingtons have "funny" ergonomics. Before you make expensive decisions, find someone with those guns and SHOOT them. Remingtons are very PAINFUL for me to shoot. Beat hell out of my social finger.

Converting Remington Cap Guns to Suppository Shooters is a mix'd bag. R&D cylinders are set up "odd" to give 6 rounds of 45 Colt. Kirst Cylinders are set up differently. They are not necessarily Harmonious in function.

The ONLY way you are reliably going to shoot 6 full stages with BP or ANY Sub is to pull the cylinder and wipe down the Cylinder Face, the Breach of the Barrel and the Base Pin. Many claim solutions that allow them to shoot a full match without attention. HOGWASH.

CAVEAT: I don't like nor recommend 777. 777 is about 20 - 30% more powerful than BP or APP. It was never intended for Pistol Cartridges. 3f APP is marvelous stuff. Actually APP is my "go-to" propellant.

You will need Big Lube bullets. You will need to pull the cylinder and wipe down EVERY stage. Historically, Remingtons have been problematic with BP since day one. The new manufacture Remingtons are worse. Keep in mind, it those Halcyon days of Yesteryear . . . NOBODY . . . reloaded their revolver. A reload was done by grabbing another fully loaded gun. Trying to "reload" would get you killed.

Personally, I shoot Colt pattern Pietta Cap Guns (SNUBBIES) GUNFIGHTER. Or I shoot Pietta Cap Guns converted to shoot Suppositories. To keep my guns running a full match, I wipe the cylinders down between EVERY stage. I also run APP in everything. YMMV

Hide and Watch

Whiptail Moses · October 15, 2020, 05:16:47 PM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on October 15, 2020, 03:17:30 PM
Whiptail

Allow me to jump in here. Heck, I'm gonna jump in anyway. CAVEAT: Plain and simple. Remingtons DO NOT play well with BP or Subs. PERIOD. Next: Classic Cowboy and Frontier Cartridge Dualist are two separate and distinct categories. You can, however, use BP in ANY category.

ah! good to know. The manual confused me. Does that mean blackhorn 209 is okay for classic, and how does that play with Remingtons?

Quote
Remingtons have "funny" ergonomics. Before you make expensive decisions, find someone with those guns and SHOOT them. Remingtons are very PAINFUL for me to shoot. Beat hell out of my social finger.

Makes sense.

Quote
Converting Remington Cap Guns to Suppository Shooters is a mix'd bag. R&D cylinders are set up "odd" to give 6 rounds of 45 Colt. Kirst Cylinders are set up differently. They are not necessarily Harmonious in function.

I have the R&D, it's fine but a bit fiddly. The conversion I'm talking about is the one installed directly by Uberti themselves, 6 rounds, including an extractor:
https://www.uberti-usa.com/new-army-conversion-revolver

Quote
Personally, I shoot Colt pattern Pietta Cap Guns (SNUBBIES) GUNFIGHTER. Or I shoot Pietta Cap Guns converted to shoot Suppositories. To keep my guns running a full match, I wipe the cylinders down between EVERY stage. I also run APP in everything. YMMV

how are open tops with APP?
Also, another basic question: looks like only b-western can do gunfighter, not classic cowboy—does that mean you have to carry your colts in buscaderos to shoot gunfighter?

Abilene · October 15, 2020, 08:29:03 PM

Howdy Whiptail. There is the gunfighter "category" and the gunfighter "style of shooting". The gunfighter "category" must be shot gunfighter or double-duelist "style of shooting"

B-Western is a category which allows (and it is the only one to do so) shooting any shooting style, so on any stage the B-Western shooter can shoot traditional, duelist, double duelist, or gunfighter. Kind of a nice perk for that category, and one that I wish some other categories would offer, but they don't.

Let's see, some other questions. Yes, Colt opentops and conversions play very well with BP and subs.

Blackhorn 209 is not legal for BP categories, and I'm pretty sure it is not legal at all in SASS (don't recall why, maybe it is duplex?)

Coffinmaker · October 16, 2020, 09:16:56 AM

Hokey Dokey

First and Foremost: a BIG PLUS ONE too Abilene!! You betcha.

Blackhorn 209 is a Duplex Propellant and is strictly forbidden by SASS rule, and is even mentioned by Name.

The cartridge "Remington" from Uberti/Cimarron is a good looking gun. I have no answer whether it will perform well with BP or Subs. ZERO experience so I can't comment.

To expand: Gunfighter is a Category in and of itself. "B" Western are allowed to shoot in the Gunfighter Style on any Stage. Weird That. The leather requirement for "Gunfighter" is two straight drop holsters. No Cross-Draw. The holsters may be positioned on the belt "however" which is to say, Traditional, loop'd over the top of the belt, Drop Loop to hang below the belt, Buscadero, etc. Personally, I use Drop Loops so I can facilitate holsters for different type guns.

APP plays well with anything. Literally anything. I run APP in my Open Tops with absolutely no problem. My Open Tops are set up for all three Cartridge choices, 38, 44 and 45. All Play well. Super easy to clean as well, with the Universal BP Cleaning Agent. Warm Water. I also include Colt Pattern Cap Guns, and Colt Pattern conversions and Uberti purpose built Conversions. Everything Tastes Better with APP

Mogorilla · October 16, 2020, 10:46:46 AM

My $0.02. I use a NMA with a R&D cylinder. I shoot a lot of cap and ball, and I did not have a problem with Cap and Ball on a NMA, just need to regularly pull the cylinder and wipe and relube the pin. I have not owned an 1875, but a friend had one that I shot side by side with my NMA. the 1875 left a nasty bruise and swelling on my social finger and I am not a guy who typically bruises. The same ammo in the NMA does not leave a bruise, but I went from the 5.5 NMA to the full 8 NMA. It handles better in my opinion.

I do like the option of loading up Cap and Ball Cylinders and shooting the NMA. I get the issues that people experience and I prefer shooting 1860 colt, Dance and 1851 in that order with NMA coming after the 1851. (love the look and feel of the 1851, I would not want to live on the difference of preference betwixt the 1860 colt, Dance and 1851). When I do shoot the NMA in cap and ball, I have 3 cylinders. I keep a lightly oiled rag about and as I pull one cylinder, I wipe the pin and add a new cylinder. (I usually use a swab to put lube in the hole of the cylinders. It is a mixture of olive oil, neatsfoot oil and beeswax. I made a lot for water proofing leather, works well on the pistols too).

Whiptail Moses · October 16, 2020, 11:20:55 AM

Quote from: Mogorilla on October 16, 2020, 10:46:46 AM
My $0.02. I use a NMA with a R&D cylinder. I shoot a lot of cap and ball, and I did not have a problem with Cap and Ball on a NMA, just need to regularly pull the cylinder and wipe and relube the pin. I have not owned an 1875, but a friend had one that I shot side by side with my NMA. the 1875 left a nasty bruise and swelling on my social finger and I am not a guy who typically bruises. The same ammo in the NMA does not leave a bruise, but I went from the 5.5 NMA to the full 8 NMA. It handles better in my opinion.

I do like the option of loading up Cap and Ball Cylinders and shooting the NMA. I get the issues that people experience and I prefer shooting 1860 colt, Dance and 1851 in that order with NMA coming after the 1851. (love the look and feel of the 1851, I would not want to live on the difference of preference betwixt the 1860 colt, Dance and 1851). When I do shoot the NMA in cap and ball, I have 3 cylinders. I keep a lightly oiled rag about and as I pull one cylinder, I wipe the pin and add a new cylinder. (I usually use a swab to put lube in the hole of the cylinders. It is a mixture of olive oil, neatsfoot oil and beeswax. I made a lot for water proofing leather, works well on the pistols too).

Thanks, you fellers have convinced me to wait to try the 75's before I buy. I didn't suspect the ergonomics could actually be worse on a later model, repro or not.
I enjoy my R+D, and seizing hasn't really been an issue since when you reload you basically have everything in front of you and can easily wipe down and regrease what matters. I wonder if that's actually an advantage over something that's not particularly black powder friendly that has a loading gate and a ejector. Sort of defeats the purpose of that if you have to disassemble it a bit to keep shooting, anyway!
Also, if I want to do cap and ball (is frontiersman percussion only?), it IS nice to be able to switch them over—like having another set of guns. I'm tempted to get another Pietta with an R+D since it's what I know already, and then wait to get a brace of something brand new and specific to cartridges till i've shot some some different guns.

Jubal Starbuck · October 16, 2020, 01:54:30 PM

Waall, my experience with a pair of Uberti 1875 Outlaws in .44WCF seems to run against popular opinion. I did the usual dismantling, deburring, etc. right out of the chute, but an old hand told me to remove the cylinder pins and polish the blue off them, ending with 600 grit wet/dry paper, then cold blue them. So ok, I did this and got a mold for MAV D Big Lube bullets and cast up a bunch , dead soft. Sized 'em to.428" and lubed with SPG. Loaded 'em on top of a caseful of black powder and lit off by Federal Magum primers. I lubed my cylinder pin with a yellow black powder lube called Wonder Lube, recommended by another old hand (a top shooter). I got a couple of sets of after market grips, which improved them a great deal in my humble opinion. Now, conventional wisdom states that I shouldn't have been able to get thru a match, but I don't ever recall having problem with binding. Seems to me that with '75 Remingtons, folks either love them or hate them!

Coffinmaker · October 16, 2020, 03:35:49 PM

Hey There Hi There Ho There

The following has absolutely nothing to do with Remingtons Per Sey. Has to do with Tech-Knee-Que. I shoot all Pietta Cap Guns, Colt Pattern, 44 Navy's (I Know, never never) or Colt Pattern 1851s in 36. I use APP (3f) in everything. I load on a Tower of Power Cylinder Loading Stand (Shameless Plug for the Tower of Power) as Snubbies have no useful loading rammer. My go-to between stage cleaner is PAM. Wipe down the Barrel breach face, the Cylinder face, the end of the Arbor and the end of the Water Table. Recharge the cylinder and go. At's it. No lubes, No Oils, No Grease nada. Insure the ball shaves a nice lead ring to seal the chambers. No Chain Fire. In this manner, I can shoot three day matches, with the guns running just as smooth a fast at the last stage as the first.

PS: Forgot to add. YES. Plainsman is shot with Cap Guns and BP/Subs in ALL guns. Cap Guns ROCK!!!

PSS: Forgot to add two: Out of the Box . . . New Cap Guns will NOT run reliably enough for CAS. They ALL require set up for reliability. Shooting Gunfighter, I will not tolerate a Cap Gun that is less reliable than any Suppository Shooter. My Cap Guns are every bit as reliable as Cartridge Guns.

When shooting my "convertibles" which are Cap Guns with Conversion Cylinders I wipe down the cylinder face and barrel breach between each stage. Same result. Smooth and fast ALL day.

PSSS; I left a VERY IMPORTANT word out earlier. New Cap Guns, out-of-the-box WILL NOT run reliably enough for CAS. They ALL require some SERIOUS set up.

Whiptail Moses · October 16, 2020, 05:00:09 PM

Thanks for the help and advice, gents.
Going to try APP, ASAP.
Going to get another NMA with an R+D to have a complete pair. I know I'll have fun tuning it, shooting it, It's easy to clean, I have a box of spare parts and a few holsters, and at the end of the day I'll also have a pair of cap and balls ready to try another class if I like.
When I'm moved and actually able to go to shoots in my new state, I'll have plenty of time to figure out which barrel length and make of pure cartridge gun is right for me if'n I want anything else.

River City John · October 16, 2020, 05:40:15 PM

While waiting for that brace of Remmies, why not practice with changing out the cylinder on the clock, a' la "Pale Rider".

Start stage with your cap 'n' ball cylinder loaded, shoot the first pistol targets, then change out to the loaded R&D cylinder and complete the second pistol targets. If a one round bonus re-load on the clock you'll have the cartridge cylinder in place to make that easier.

Whiptail Moses · October 16, 2020, 06:46:59 PM

Is this for occasional stages that include timed reloads?

Tuolumne Lawman · October 16, 2020, 06:54:37 PM

I prefer the Kirst to R&D conversion cylinders because of the loading gate. All four of my main match pistols are Pietta BPs with Kirst Konverters. Two 1851 with .38 Long Colt Konverters and a Remington NMW and Colt 1860 with .45 Konverters. All have loading gates milled and ejector rods installed.

They are perfect for my early persona of a 1867 to 1871 California Lawman. I use a HRA 1860 Henry and a Uberti 1866 carbine, both in .44-40.

Whiptail Moses · October 16, 2020, 06:59:15 PM

How do you deal with cleaning up the black powder residue on the Remington between stages? Don't you need to do further disassembly to get everything slick again?
My thinking is, if I'd have to do that anyway, having an ejector and loading gate wouldn't really be all that useful since I'll have to pull the cylinder anyway (though krist is certainly more authentic!)
Beautiful shooters, btw!

Quote from: Tuolumne Lawman on October 16, 2020, 06:54:37 PM
I prefer the Kirst to R&D conversion cylinders because of the loading gate. All four of my main match pistols are Pietta BPs with Kirst Konverters. Two 1851 with .38 Long Colt Konverters and a Remington NMW and Colt 1860 with .45 Konverters. All have loading gates milled and ejector rods installed.

They are perfect for my early persona of a 1867 to 1871 California Lawman. I use a HRA 1860 Henry and a Uberti 1866 carbine, both in .44-40.

hellgate · October 19, 2020, 10:11:37 PM

My Uberti NMAs will gum up in 2-3 stages depending on how much BP I use. To prevent binding I merely put a single drop of oil at the front of the cylinder/frame junction over the cylinder pin. I do this each stage. It keeps the cylinder free wheeling and softens the cylinder pin fouling. I charge each chamber then holding the barrel upward I put on the drop of oil and spin the cylinder a time or two and it's ready for capping. I can shoot them all day with this easy & quick preventative. No need to pull the cylinder and wipe. The oil drop saves a lot of time and messy rags.

Reverend P. Babcock Chase · October 19, 2020, 11:41:31 PM

A little off topic, but I have a converted Pietta with the six firing pin cylinder, I got this from a fellow cowboy years ago. I only shoot smokeless in it. (I stopped shooting BP years ago, but that's another story). Lately I noticed that I have some gas cutting on the cylinder pin. It's not a problem (yet!). It's one of my backup guns, but I'm going to keep shooting it as is to see how far the cutting will go. By the way, it is one of my best shooting six-guns.

Rev. Chase