Kevin Tinny - Part 1: General Information & BATFE Classification

[Two Flints]

Credits and Acknowledgements

To SSS Members & Guests:

Credits have been in my mind from the beginning. I struggled to avoid sensitivities.

This may seem to be about guns and ammunition, but for me it was more about the people that encouraged and shared so others might learn.  Old friendships were rekindled and fresh ones started.  Many went above and beyond with information and caring direction. Some requested not to be directly included in this section.  So, for all of you that have and will continue to be good shipmates, I thank each of you with a nod and a hug.

Two Flints and Blair made it possible; GEO, Ken, Larry and Larry, David, Jeff, Herbert, another Jeff, Phil, Joe, Tony, Chip, Richard, Ashley, Terry, Dave, Sharon and Jamey, Snakeeater, John, Bruce and John, Dave, Tom, Bill, Bobby, Papa Lou, Paul and Richard, Frank and DJ, Cheri and Kody, Lucinda, Cap't. Bob, The Schiffer, Steven, Say aah and those mentioned via Threads and Posts also deserve waves and smiles. 

Very respectfully,
Kevin
aka, El Supremo

HISTORY of Reproduction CENTERFIRE Spencer Rifle/Carbine, Ctg. CASES and AMMO  14 APR 20

The information has been divided into sections:
1.   General information and BATFE classification.
2.   History of Reproductions and related information.
3.   Centerfire conversion upper blocks.
4.   Modern centerfire 56-50 cartridge cases and ammunition.

General information and BATFE classification:

Photo's are not included because most are viewable within Forum and INTERNET references.

This information was compiled over ten years from the CAS/SSS and N-SSA Forums, face-to-face/email discussions and others that "were there".  I found things that involved sensitivities, created skeptical glances, are the opposite of another's Forum Post, were first answered one way and later the opposite way by the same person, were missing key facts and a few that remain incorrect.  Attempts to reach a few other first-hand people have failed or resulted in a refusal to share. 

Similar NAMES have been interchanged on Forum Threads.  One is ("Dr"?) Kenneth E. Howell of Stevensville, MT, who wrote a cartridge conversion book in 1995, via PRECISION SHOOTING MAGAZINE, is NOT Kenneth P. Howell, Jr, of Beloit, WI, who did one/two Spencer reproduction carbines and started TEN-X Ammunition. 

Searching Forums and the INTERNET with what seemed to be the correct word or phrase often produced nothing after plodding through DOZENS of PAGES of Threads and Posts.  But, within seemingly unrelated Threads and Posts WAS important information and PHOTO's.  I learned that the "experts" had lots of Posts and reading ALL of them was VERY helpful.  Some info appeared in otherwise unrelated commentary. 

As of April 2020, I believe the following is the best information, or if suspect, is qualified to indicate why.   

If anything is incorrect or rubs the wrong way, I apologize and request that you please share corrections with me so that this can be revised.  I have asked Two Flints to configure it in "SORI" so that it can be revised.
I HOPE others DO share corrections and ADD information.  Please – when sharing, include sources/references. 
I am grateful for your patience and can be reached via PM's on the SSS forum under "El Supremo" or N-SSA Forum as Kevin Tinny Tammany Rgt, 42 NY.  I will then work with Two Flints to make changes.  Thank you.

Reproduction Spencer Rifles and Carbines and BATFE classification:

FOUR makers of at least ONE "complete" reproduction Spencer carbine/rifle are:

1.   Kenneth P. "Ken/Kenny" Howell, Jr – 1, perhaps two more with a purchased rifled barrel blank.

2.   Larry G. Romano – 78, with either Douglas rifled blanks or HIS rifled barrels and HIS machined parts.

3.   "Fletcher-Bidwell" – 30, with purchased rifled barrel blanks. All main metal parts were castings.  Contrary to RUMORS, Dr. Menn of F-B said THEY STILL have ALL the tooling, investment casting moulds and lots of German barrels as of March 2020. 

4.   Armisport/Chiappa – At least 1,200, through distributors including Taylors & Co and Cimarron.

THREE makers of PARTS or a partially completed version:

1.   "Alphawolf 45" - Scratch-built a Spencer in 22LR without wood or a fully functioning upper block.

2.   "Spencer Rifle Co" in Portland, TN.  Did/does parts. 

3.   There was a person, name is not recalled, that bought original parts to assemble to original receivers, in hopes of selling enough to get going on fresh parts reproductions, but nothing happened.

Romano's and Ken Howell's were built in 1995; with each sharing that they had NO awareness of the other or the coincidental chambering for the 56-50 CENTERFIRE cartridge use until AFTER EACH had finished theirs.

BATFE classification of Spencer's in 56-50 chambering as "modern":

This topic should be simple given BATF Regulations, Licenses and Records.  I am NOT schooled on BATFE regulations and procedures, but have encountered oddities involving reproduction Spencer's with no serial numbers on their frames, the timing of "commercial" cartridge cases and ammunition appearances/licenses and the timing of classification Notices about repro's being "modern" firearms.  These oddities may have been related to the progression of the BATFE's access to ever-increasing INTERNET details.  With the BATFE's ability to "see" so much digital information, I believe "Regulations" are NOW clear about and what constitutes "commercial ammunition/components" and a "Modern Firearm". 

Larry Romano shared that most of HIS first group of "three-digit frame number" Spencer's had NOT been BATFE classified as modern firearms BECAUSE when transferred, there was no readily available commercial 56-50 center-fire ammunition. He said the importation of Italian Spencer reproductions in 56-50 caliber, together with the collaboration of an American importer with at least one commercial ammunition company and a cartridge case maker to produce 56-50 center-fire cartridges and cases,  seemed to be what got the BATFE involved in re-classifying freshly built 56-50 centerfire Spencer's.

Larry Romano said he received a BATF "NOTICE" letter of "reclassification" prior to 2009 and spoke with the Agent to learn what happened.  The Agent told him that since "commercially loaded 56-50 ammo was readily available, "Curio" status was changed to "Modern".  Larry had all the necessary BATF licenses, so compliance was easy.

My guess is that the "BATFE's reclassification date" was between 2005 and 2008 and involves THREE entities that were openly (catalog listings) dealing in LOADED 56-50 centerfire cartridges.  Importers of the Italian ones may have had their "modern firearm" classification in place around 2005, but Romano was not advised until late 2008. 

According to the BATFE, the three "commercial" producers were: The Old Western Scrounger ("OWS"), possibly Buffalo Arms and TEN-X.  OWS never "made" ammo so Dave Cumberland must have bought his. 

During 2005, OWS was purchased and moved to Navy Arms, in Martinsburg, WV.  TEN-X has stopped "cowboy" ammunition sales.  Dave Gullo at Buffalo is stumped on the BATFE's DATE because he searched his records and said his Manufacturing License and Catalog do not list 56-50 center-fire ammo until 2010.  Dave WAS producing 56-50 cases FORMED from 50-70 brass as early as September 9, 2005, BUT in September 2006, Buffalo was NO LONGER producing these cases!

BEFORE STARLINE produced HEADSTAMPED 56-50 center-fire cases, at least Ballard Rifle & Cartridge, "BR&C", Bertram and BELL were producing 50-70 Sharps cases that others reformed into 56-50 center-fire cases.

Ken Howell is credited in writing by Tammy Hawkins Loy at Taylor's & Co with designing both the CHAMBER and CASE for the Armisport Chiappa 56-50 Spencer reproduction.  Within the 2005 – 2008 period was S&S's very limited run of custom turned 56-50 center-fire cases, now long out of stock. Starline's WEBSITE for "case #4020 56-50" indicates ITS case for Taylor's Spencer takes Large Rifle Primers and is "built to CIP specifications". 

"CIP" is the European Union equivalent of "SAAMI" in the U.S.  CIP stands for Permanent International Committee For Firearms/Smallarms Testing.  (The TRANSLATION of the FRENCH "CIP" wording VARIES).  NO CARTRIDGES or FIREARMS can be made in EUROPE until CIP approves the cartridge and then sets standards for firearms to be proofed with that cartridge.  CIP regulations on the INTERNET clearly indicate:
"NO FIREARM CAN BE PROOFED WITHOUT A SERIAL NUMBER."

In an SSS Thread by Harve Curry, "Proof Tests of (Italian) Spencers" of Jan 13, 2008, Two Flints posted on January 28, 2008 that he contacted Italian sources and learned:  Armisport Spencer's were proofed with approximately a 39,000 PSI load that is 30% higher than normal pressure. 

WHERE the SERIAL NUMBER IS PLACED seems to differ from BATFE regulations.  Europe CAN place it on the BARREL and NOT put one on the receiver.  Watch for Italian and Spanish rifles with NO serial number on the receiver.  I have encountered TWO examples, a Pedersoli Sharps and an Armisport/Chiappa Spencer Carbine.  The owner of the Pedersoli was told by a BATFE auditor that a "Variance" might be needed.   

A CAS/SSS Thread of April 6, 2007 "TEN-X Spencer" indicates that TEN-X shared that some of its 56-50 cases came from Berry Mfg.  Also indicated was that Jamison brass had the 10-X headstamp, but that as of 2007, TEN-X WAS using STARLINE brass. TEN-X cartridges can have either Starline 56-50 or TEN-X (Jamison) headstamps.  Google Jamison Cartridge in Sturgis, SD for history.  In a CAS/SSS Thread of March 2013, "Shooting an ORIGINAL Spencer Carbine".  Reply #4 indicates that in 2007, Richard Pomerantz of TEN-X said that TEN-X has used Starline, Jamison and even had their own cases made but does NOT use cut-down 50-70 brass. 

This indicates that IN 2007, there WAS commercial TEN-X, 56-50 ammo that could have included STARLINE "56-50" head-stamped cases.  An INTERNET search for "56-50 case" brings "Loaddata.com" website and Brian Pearce of Wolfe Publishing indicating that as of October 22, 2007, ONLY TEN-X was producing 56-50 loaded cartridges.

A March 22, 2007 CAS/SSS Thread "Starline", indicates STARLINE may have made cases in 2005, but the headstamp was NOT disclosed.  This FITS what Starline told me on 28JAN2020.  Details are in another section.

As one producer of commercial ammo shared in March 2020: 
The BATFE is exceptionally capable via its battery of INTERNET and other digital media search engines to INSTANTLY KNOW what is happening with ammunition.  That fellow added that BATFE Ammunition Manufacturer's Licenses are NOT "BLANKET" items.  Each cartridge and case MUST be separately listed. 

Another cartridge case manufacturer told me that the BATFE approached HIM at a SHOT Show and commented that "It's about time you got a license."  He had been OPENLY selling commercial brass for at least 18 months.  He told the Agent that HIS attorney DID NOT KNOW HOW TO COMPLY BECAUSE HE had inquired of three, specifically named BATFE Agents and received THREE different CONFLICITING answers with NO references to Regulations OR DIRECTION TO GET A LICENSE!  The Agent would NOT RESPOND TO THAT DOCUMENTATION and told the owner that SINCE the CASE manufacturer was ENGAGED IN "commercial production of any of the FOUR ammunition components: cases, propellant, primers or bullets, a Federal License WAS REQUIRED. 

Complicating the "commercially available" 56-50 center-fire ammo aspect is the use of cut-down STARLINE 50-70 brass by custom CARTRIDGE MAKERS.  Many CAS/SSS posts in the 2005-2007 timeframe state STARLINE cases FOR 56-50 Armisports, but do NOT describe the headstamp. 

January 28, 2020, I spoke at length with Starline engineer, Hunter, at 800-280-6660 to get first-hand historical information on the STARLINE 50-70 Sharps and 56-50 Spencer cases.  He was friendly, interested and helped considerably.  Thanks, Hunter.

Here is his information, sourced from company files:

The Starline 50-70 Sharps HEADSTAMPED case originated in Oct/Nov 2004 per dates on tooling and die drawings.  The dates on related EMAILS indicated TO HUNTER that the 50-70 case preceded the 56-50 by perhaps a month, but he quickly added they could have ended-up being simultaneous.
The Starline 56-50 "Taylors" cartridge CASE #4020 file contained samples in a plastic bag from the FIRST batch in either very late 2004 or perhaps early 2005 with ONLY 56-50 HEADSTAMPS. 

Also, in the plastic bag were some BELL 50 BASIC cases. 
He was certain that IF Starline had SHIPPED any "cut-down" 50-70 head-stamped cases, samples WOULD BE IN THE FILE (bag) and there were none.

He looked at drawing #4020 and email dates and all were in the OCT/NOV 2004 time frame, so he imagined first shipping was either Nov-Dec 2004 or in Jan 2005. 

He also said Starline has a "manufacturer's license" but he was not familiar with whether that includes an exhibit of all the cartridges Starline makes. 

He said the 56-50 file clearly indicates the case is "56-50 TAYLORS" and to "CIP specifications".

I shared about an ITALIAN Sharps with no serial number on its frame and at least one Armisport/Chiappa Spencer with no "serial number" on its frame, just on their barrels, and HUNTER said that he has seen that SAME THING with SPANISH guns where the number is often ONLY on the barrel.  It's some sort of a "European thing".

This information from HUNTER at STARLINE indicates TWO IMPORTANT things:

1.   Starline never shipped 56-50 brass with a 50-70 headstamp, so all Starline 56-50 cases WITH a 50-70 headstamp were probably custom formed.

2.   The initial SHIPMENTS of 56-50 TAYLORS brass was between Nov. 2004 and Jan. 2005. 

A Fletcher-Bidwell owner, with a "curio" FFL, told me that HIS F-B was delivered as a "curio" in Dec 2002, which was BEFORE the BATF(E) classified the 56-50 C-F Spencer as a modern gun. 

Larry Romano shared that there are common myths about BATFE compliance.  Unless OFFICIALLY exempted:
1.   A "licensed manufacturer of guns" must number and identify itself ON ALL of them and if for personal/prototype use, even a single example cannot leave the shop for any reason, unless "in the book".
2.   As far as he knows, there is no specific rule about WHEN the serial number and name must be applied, just that they must before leaving the shop.
3.   Transfer of anything "in the book" requires completion of the BATFE 4473 Transfer Form.
4.   If it goes bang (via a cartridge), it IS an FFL item unless specifically exempt ON the BATFE list.

[El Supremo]

Hello; the commentary process is starting:

Because there was no easy way to submit these Threads for pre-post peer review, i asked for your helpful PM's with corrections.

So far, via a PM, Herbert, "down under" has kindly alerted me to a rifling twist error.

I am waiting for Two Flints to either unlock the Threads so I can make corrections, with credit given to each of you or simply enable any of you respond normally. 

In the beginning, I imagined that Two Flints would place the info into SORI, which would not have easily allowed member posts.

My preference is for your posts to appear so your thoughts are correctly presented.

I have a couple corrections/typo's and am not yet enabled to Edit the Thread. 

It's a process.  I will make sure your PM's are posted. 
Or simply Post as did Treebeard.  Either way is fine with me. Please keep them coming.

Many thanks,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[El Supremo]

Hello:

More about adding info and corrections, please:

Please Post DIRECTLY to the Thread instead of PM'ing me.
This will be the simplest way at this time.

I have asked Herbert to do this a rifling twist correction.

Many thanks,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny