Difference between Goex 3F and Swiss 3F

[Doug.38PR]

In the past week I have but the above subject to the test using my 1873 Uberti 19 inch carbine in .44-40.  A Lead hardcast 200 gr bullet from Hunter?s Supply,a lubed soft wad behind the bullet and 34 gr (volume) of black powder using starline brass (and a few remington shells too).

My Lyman manual, for comparison, uses the same rifle by Navy Arms.   Their load calls for 31 gr of BP with goex 3F and lists a velocity of 1127 fps.   2F goex lists a velocity of around 1069 fps (I don?t remember the exact number there off the top of my head)

When shooting Swiss 3F the velocity was between 1192-1228 fps. Roughly right around 1200 fps.  Fairly impressive.

When shooting Goex 3F the velocity was between 1042-1115 with all but one under 1100.  (That one was 1115).    Not that impressive.  I then loaded three rounds up to 38 gr of powder to see if a more compressed load would make any difference.  It didn?t.  They were 1043, 1042 and 1075 fps.   A little disappointing.  I was hopeful it would consistently make it over 1100.   The results are more like the lyman 2f goex results

...oh and one other difference: Goex smells like dog poop after it?s been fired

[nativeshootist]

in W44WCF's post on his Black Powder Journey for an authentic .44-44 round like how it was back in the day, he tested Goex as thats what he had and later tried Swiss. He said swiss was more like the powders of the 19th Century and that it didn't take much lube to keep it moist and that it had a slightly higher velocity. He did mention that Goex Olde Eynsford and Swiss did shoot about the same, also OE is a little bit more cheap than Swiss powder.

[Doug.38PR]

in W44WCF's post on his Black Powder Journey for an authentic .44-44 round like how it was back in the day, he tested Goex as thats what he had and later tried Swiss. He said swiss was more like the powders of the 19th Century and that it didn't take much lube to keep it moist and that it had a slightly higher velocity. He did mention that Goex Olde Eynsford and Swiss did shoot about the same, also OE is a little bit more cheap than Swiss powder.

That?s good to know about Old Eynsford.  Funny how Goex claims to be as old as 1802 but they, well, don?t make them like they used to

[wildman1]

The company was Dupont before 1970 and it may be your lube that smells like DS after you shoot it.
I use about 70 lbs of BP a year, Goex, OE, Swiss and Schuetzen. They all smell about the same.
wM1

[Ranch 13]

That?s good to know about Old Eynsford.  Funny how Goex claims to be as old as 1802 but they, well, don?t make them like they used to

Well they do make blackpowder like they used to. One needs to keep in mind that in the days when blackpowder was all there was each company sold several different types of blackpowder. After smokeless killed off the majority of black powder manufacture, DuPont only produced the one type of powder, there was no more demand for Lightning, Ducking, Electric, Cartridge and KentuckyRifle powders. So what they made was most just an offshoot of the military grade powder.
Olde Eynsford and Swiss are most likely copies of some of the later varieties of Lightning,Electric and or the Kentucky Rifle powders.
Yes the red can Goex 3f will shoot slower than Swiss 3f, Swiss 2f would be a better comparison.

[Doug.38PR]

UPDATE: Ok.  I just loaded 5 more rounds using the full 40 grains volume of Goex 3F in Remongton RP shells.  One without a wad and four with. 
First shot without wad came out: 1229 fps (wow)
Other four with wads came out: 1107, 1101, 1100, 1061 fps.

Before that i shot five rounds that were all wadded and were with 31 gr.  Averaged 1060-1079. 


So topping off the shell casing with a full measured 40 grains does make at least some difference.  The wad being there or not also seems to make a difference.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

That is interesting Doug, but WHERE did they go?
Fast is fine accuracy is final is my motto (stolen from some one Wyatt Earp perhaps).
Not to start a fight but if they don't go where you want them it makes little difference how quickly they get there.
I hate to ask you to go to all that hard dirty work loading, shooting, and testing it is a dirty job but some one has to do it and you are the huckleberry. (Just kidding).
Thanks
respectfully
Bunk

[R.M. Conversion]

Swiss is surely more expensive - but for my cartridges that's all I'll use.  Seems to be more accurate, consistent and cleans better.  Old Eynsford seems pretty good too.  I'll use Goex for 'casual' shooting in my percussion pistols.

I wonder if you could mix the two - say 50/50 and consider Goex as "Swiss Helper" to cut costs a little.

[Yeso Bill]

One can obtain the same velocities with both Swiss & OE.  With the lots I have had, Swiss is hotter.  As Bunk points out...."Where did they go?"  When I shoot the 44-40s in the afternoon, the humidity is usually on 16.  I have found that OE is the more accurate, suggesting a higher moisture content in the fouling.

Elsewhere, where the humidity is quite abit higher, Swiss might outshoot OE.  I wouldn't know.

Billy

[Bryan Austin]

  BLACK POWDER 

Yeeehaaaa....love the smell of BP in the mornings!!!

Doug, glad you are enjoying the 44-40...and with BP too!!!

Like others have already said, John shared with us in great detail his black powder journey. He found the Swiss was the better "quality" powder of those days as I did. He also tested OE of which I did not.

My batch of Swiss FFg weighed equal 40gr as it also measured 40gr by volume. I never did try Swiss FFFg. Since John was perfecting the BP loads with 44-40...I didnt test much and went right in to the smokeless powder testing.

What little bit of testing I did was mainly with revolvers to somewhat accompany John's rifle work.

John was a lover of the Marlin aspect of the 44-40 so he liked to stay with the name "44-40", Marlin, Remington etc. He used Remington cases when he could because they are thicker/stronger. One can compress more black powder in the Remington cases and not have to worry about the case "expanding" from the compression step and not chambering.

Using wads is a bit of a waste of time and energy. Only a few cartridges John dissected had any kind of wad in it.....so dump the wads. Yes, I know the 200gr "Magma" bullets have a small lube groove. The amount of lube does help accuracy but really only after a certain number of consecutive shots. Shooting a few at a time before "wiping" should be fine. If you want accuracy throught 30 to 40 consecutive shots....by all means switch bullets to one with a larger groove. The Original bullet and the Lyman 427098 bullets don't have large amounts of lube but certainly a little more than the Magma type design/s.

It can be somewhat of a long story so I will save it for John to explain in his Black Powder Journey story. I will post a link below.

Read his work, you won't be disappointed. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/contributors/john-kort/two-peas-in-a-pod-by-john-kort

[Bryan Austin]

On a side note...Revolver Results

Uberti Cattleman 5.5"
200gr Big Lube

Swiss FFg - 40gr .20" compression 960fps
Goex FFFg - 40gr .17" compression 916fps
Skirmish FFFg - 38gr 891fps
Pyro-P - 38gr 965fps
Pyro Select - 38 886fps


43-210B and Marlin 1889 made in 1891
Swiss FFg - 40gr, 1,355fps

20" MGM test barrel
Lyman 427098

Starline Brass - Swiss FFg/40gr/.21" compression/1,226fps/8,953psi

Original Unheadstamped Cases - Swiss FFg/40gr/.18" compression/1,373fps/14,285psi

Original Henry rim fire ballistics was 1,125fps

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/