Dad's Spencer - 1860 or 1865 SN4222?

[djknoop]

One of Dad's small ACW collection along with a Sharps and a Springfield this Spencer was something he hunted down over a summer when I was in middle school. We hit up 9 gun shows across Ohio and PA until he tracked down a decent Spencer at a show in Mansfield.

After emailing TwoFlints I had a chance to get it looked at by a local collector.
He was rather puzzled by this oddblall Spencer, it has the cutoff, but no sling/saddle bar, and it appears to have been re-stocked as the stock thickness doesn't match the receiver. Though, that could be how some of them were made?

I can take and post more photos if needed (I know these are rather rough)

https://imgur.com/a/4hYRE

So, is this an 1860 half-updated to an 1865 or just a '65 without the bar?

[Two Flints]

Doug,

A better view, here?  You can print this page out - right click?

[djknoop]

Thank you!

I've added 2 more pics to the gallery of the marks on the underside of the stock.
Very, very faintly impressed is what I can make out as "JCK" also present are heavily struck "C" and a "V"
I can't make out any other markings, and unless I'm way off I don't see those initials on your document.

The barrel is 3 groove and has seen some use.

[DJ]

It looks like a carbine built or rebuilt on a rifle action and buttstock due to the lack of a cutout for sling ring bar.

Does the serial number under the barrel match the receiver?

--DJ

[djknoop]

I assume I'd need to take it apart to find that out?

[DJ]

You need to take forearm off.  Take the screw out of the bottom of the fore end, then depress the spring that holds the barrel band and slide the barrel band off.  Sometimes the springs get gunk under them and don't want to depress--just be gentle and persevere, but don't force anything. You should be able to see if it goes down enough to clear the band.

Sometimes the barrel band sticks and doesn't want to slide forward even with the spring depressed--a little judicious tapping with a non-marring tool (maybe the plastic handle of a screwdriver) along the top and a little on each side of the barrel can often start it moving.  Be careful, and don't hit the band along the wood side, because it can mar the wood pretty easily.  Sometimes the forearms drop off, so remove the barrel band over a soft surface, so the wood doesn't fall and get cracked or dented.  A couple thick towels on the table should suffice.  If it doesn't drop off, a little gentle pulling should free it.  If you feel you need to pry it, don't.  Instead you should check back here for some ideas on loosening it.  There is a metal block on the bottom of the barrel that the forend fits over, so don't try to pull the wood forward--it could come off straight down.  The serial number should be stamped lengthwise along the barrel just about on the opposite side of the rear sight.

[djknoop]

Thank you, it came off easily.
The SN does match the 4222 on the receiver and also has 125 and 170 stamped to either side.
I can post pics if requested.

[djknoop]

Hello again, I just wanted to check in and see if anyone had confirmation or a hunch on this being a converted rifle.

The barrel and receiver SN match, it has the 3 groove barrel, cutoff, but no saddle ring bar, and none of the markings match what Two Flints shared above.

Is there a resource to check the SN 4222 against a rifle list?

Thanks.

[Two Flints]

djknoop,

If your "carbine" was  converted from a rifle - then, it may have been issued to the Ninth Michigan Volunteer Cavalry in 1865 -  serial #s 4215, 4230, 4231, 4237, etc., were issued to the same Michigan unit AS RIFLES.

[djknoop]

Thanks again!

This just gets curiouser and curiouser.

Was it common to cut-down rifle barrels rather than simply change over to a carbine barrel?

Or am I thinking too much about this and its just a '65 with a SN out of the ordinary that for some reason didn't get a sling bar and has had a butt stock replacement somewhere along the line?

[Herbert]

Very lucky to last this one ,would have started as a pre carbine contract carbine(a small number of these were trialed)then sent to Springfield for a update to 56-50 and stabler cut of added(this is a very rare variant)

[djknoop]

I'm always interested in a good story, but is there any way to know if this is actually a "rare variant"?

Or have we reached the end of the breadcrumbs left by dutiful ordnance scribes?

[DJ]

How long is the barrel?

[Herbert]

There are 3ur 4 0ther of carbines in this serial range that are the same as this one but none that I know of except this one with 3 groove rifling

[djknoop]

Thanks gang!

I'll try to get better photos and take measurements this weekend but have a bunch of Cub Scout stuff going on.

It is amazing to me that there is so much knowledge and information available about these fascinating guns!