CCI 350 primers with 2400?

[Ben Beam]

I ordered my first reloading press kit today and decided to go to Cabela's and get supplies so I am ready to go when it arrives. I had already done some research ahead of time and was confident in what I wanted, but due Cabela's being out of stock I ended up with something slightly different and I'm wanting to make sure that I'm not about to do anything dangerous.

I had planned to get Unique powder, but since it was out of stock I picked up Alliant 2400 powder, since it also came highly recommended for .44 mag. I also picked up some CCI primers, since they're also well regarded for the Lee turret press. But as it turns out, the 2400 is listed for the 300 primers, not the 350s I was seeing recommended for the Unique, and which I ended up with.

A few searches online showed a lot of people saying "works fine for me," but I tend to be a bit cautious when packing explosives.

Is it safe to use the CCI 350 primers with minimum loads for 240 gr 44 mag rounds with Alliant 2400 powder? I hate to cut corners right out of the gate. :p

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings My Good OldSchoolBoy -

Which loading manual did you get, and what does it recommend?

let's see ... your specs are:
minimum loads
44 mag
CCI 350 primers
240 gr rounds
Alliant 2400 powder

I am assuming you are using lead bullets.

My Lyman manual says 300 or 350 primers, but only lists magnm loads, no light ones.

My Lee manual only states "large pistol primers" , and offers an "802 fps" starting load for Unique, but none for 2400 in that bullet...
However, the Lee book also explicitly states on p54 "Use magnum primers only when the load data specifies magnum primers"
( in bold , no less)

Sooooo ... I will have to hang fire whilst I study the several manuals I have....

yhs
prof marvel

Bearingin mind that "magnum" primers are

[Ben Beam]

Yeah, here's the conundrum: the bullets I got are Berry's 240 grain plated (.429). Berry's says not to shoot them over 1250 fps and treat them as cast otherwise. I see people elsewhere saying they load them like FJP and they're fine, but I don't want to cut corners with safety. I only specified "light load" because I'm trying to prioritize safety over power, but I'm not averse to shooting Magnum if everything else fits.

I imagine I will need to replace the primers, and possibly the powder, but I'm hoping to not make it a total loss. My failing was that when I got to the store and they didn't have what I had planned, I made on the spot substitutions with other items people were recommending and using. Totally my fault.

I'm sure I can use the powder and maybe primers at a late date with different loads, but very hesitant to go "off recipe" for my first batch without some guidance!

I should also note I'm fine loading them for .44 special if that somehow works better.

[Crow Choker]

SchoolBoy: Back once upon a time magnum primers were the suggested and go-to primer for 2400 powder for loading 357, 41, and 44 Mags. I loaded hundreds of 357 ammo using 2400 and hard cast lead, cast lead bullets with gas checks, and JHP's using 13-15 grains of 2400. Real ear splitters, fire breathing, hard hittin cartridges. Now, due to a change in the formula of 2400, most loads for 2400 call for standard small or large primers, depending on the caliber. Standard primers are all I use now for 357 and 44 Special and 44 Mag loadings, with a few exceptions. Unique will only need standard primers.  You need to consider the burn rate of the powder as to which primer you need. If you are going just to shoot at a standard range or in some gravel pit somewhere, the 1200-1400 fps 44 mags are of no consequence-your choice. But CAS rules limit your firearm power range to somewhere less than 1000 and no jacketed bullets. Someone that is 'up' on the rules will have to chime in on this, but I do know their are restrictions. See you posted while I was typing this--take the items back and get a refund or what you need if in stock.

Hate saying this, but I've found over the years some of the 'sales people' at places like Cabela's, Bass Pro, Gander Mt, and such---well sometimes their experience and knowledge comes from what they were told by someone, who sometimes isn't real up on all the real needed knowledge on firearms and reloading or they read a "Fast Reloading Guide". I don't know how many times I was fed some line of BS, sometimes holding my tongue, other telling the 'good intending' sales person what really was. Heck, some of my guns are older than some of the guys wearing slacks and a tie. Not saying in all circumstances. Just saying to be careful of what you are being sold, just to make a sale. Helped one would be component shooter/buyer in a gun shop one time who came in to buy powder/primers for his newly purchased AR-15 5.56. He had sat in a session with a relative loading some ammo, came to buy some for himself and was going to buy some rifle powder geared for heavy 30 caliber loadings. Asked me for advice and when I showed him what he should have, his response was "Well all powders are the same aren't they, doesn't make much difference". Gave him some free/safe advice. Just sayin-if ya can't find what you need or want, don't just buy anything so ya can start crankin out ammo and use a lot of desecration when being told by some employee at a retail store. Most will give you good advice, but there are those who don't have the expertise to be in in the firearm department, maybe should be selling Nike tenny's.

[Professor Marvel]

"bearing in mind that magnum primers are 'hotter' "
boy my brain and fingers are not cooperating...

Basically, I concurr with Monsieur Crow.

If not shooting CAS, then you have the makiings for some nice magnum loads. ~1000 to ~1200 fps, no prob.

If shooting CAS, you'll probably want a different powder to stay under the 900-1000 fps mark and not chew up the steel. If those bullets
are copper plated, the local CAS club may object even if they are soft.

Using 44 spcl data in a .44mag case and magnum primers means you need to "do some adjusting". But generally not much worry as you are shooting them in a .44 mag revolver which can handle more pressure than a "special" should it occur.... (remember, magnum primers are hotter).

If you can't get any other powder, you  "could" get some Alliant Black MZ Muzzleloader Powder , it's a BP sub, shoots relatively cleanly and you basically load a case full enough to still be able to seat the bullet. Low pressures, CAS velocities, relatively clean, but it makes some smoke ( no indoor shooting) ....

"Generally speaking" one can work up some "reduced loads"...  but that involves experience, research, a chrony, etc etc
and  I recommend folks stick to published recipes.

The Lee book has a whole section on changes to components and how that can change pressure, and another whole section
on pressure issues... one chart showed how merely changing primer BRANDS casued a signifacnt change in pressure and velocity.

still looking over my books....

hope this helps
prof marvel

[Ben Beam]

That is very helpful, and I appreciate everyone's kind offers of assistance. Cabela's won't accept returns on any reloading supplies, so unless I can find a load that works with what I have, I'll have to purchase additional supplies.

I feel comfortable that I should be able to make due with the equipment I have, but the lack of knowledge can be a bit more expensive.

I'm not shooting CAS yet. Don't have the necessary firearms, and the closest club is a couple hours away. One bit of good news: I recently got my first pair of "cowboy boots" (Ariat Heritage Lacers) and despite not being broken in yet they're the most comfortable footwear I have. I'm befuddled but very pleased. I have chronic pain conditions that make all kinds of things difficult, so when something feels better it's a big blessing!

I really can't express my appreciation for everyone's help. Been a rough year what with frightening medical issues and then a very unwanted (but thank God amicable) divorce. This seems like a great community, and I'm hoping I can participate locally when the time is right.

Best to you all. Keep the suggestions coming... 

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings OldSchoolBoy

2400 is actually a good choice since it is a rather "fluffy" powder and fills large cases well. for example one .44 spcl load lists
11.2 gr of 2400 versus 5.8 gr of Unique - both giving ~ 700 fps at a pressure of about 8000 CUP.

Do you have a manual yet? if not I highly recommend the latest Lee and Lyman. If you can only afford one at this time, the Lee has more "lead" loads and the Lyman has more "jacketed" loads. The Lee book also has the most extensive discussion of particulars that I have seen such as pressure stuff, "reduced loads", powder info, etc etc .

for example, the Lyman book ( 49th edition page 375 ) lists a .44 special load for a 240 gr lead (#2 alloy)
using 2400 and a CCI 300 primer.

Suggested starting load of 2400 is 11.2 grains which produces 698 fps  and a pressure of 7,800 CUP.
Suggested starting load of Unique is 5.8 gr which produces 708 fps and a pressure of 8,100 CUP.

Now, just to show "how much" changing only one thing can affect the outcome:
by changing to a 245 gr lead bullet (#2 alloy) with wider driving bands
the starting load with 2400 is 10.0 gr  ( 1.2 gr less ) for 706 fps and 7,600 CUP  ( 8 fps faster but less pressure)
for Uniqe it's 5.2 gr ( .6 gr less) for 771 fps and 10,100 CUP -- 63 fps faster and a 25% increase in pressure!!

"normally" the magnum primer would produce a a slightly hotter load, but that is a nice mild starting point.
Also,  If one substituted a .44 mag case  that "generally" produces somewhat less pressure since it is increasing the
case volume.

"increasing " case volume ( ie using ".44 special" load data in a ".44 magnum" case ) is "generally" safer than the other way around. When one DECREASES case volume with the same amount of powder, one can INCREASE pressure.

I am personally investigating this "case volume" thing, as I experiment with ultra-light .45 Colt  Round Ball Gallery Loads. I found an ancient recipe for a small amount of unique, a fluffy wad, and a round ball, crimped in place; this gives a very mild , quiet, practice gallery load that one can safely use in a basement ( fer instance).  a single paperback book is enough to stop the roundball.

However, if the RB is pushed all the way down and compresses the powder, ( ie - dramatically less case volume)  I suddenly find a MUCH louder report and more recoil!!! There are no adverse "pressure signs", but ....

In order to carry this out further and in a more measured manner I will have to go get a chrony, and a pressure device (if I can afford one).

yhs
prof marvel

[Professor Marvel]

Addendum -

"Out on the webs" there are any number of recommendations when using magnum primers. One of the worst I saw was
"reduce load by 1 grain".  As one expert pointed out, depending on the powder, that can literally put you below the minimum recomended starting load.
from here:  http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365851

Gerk suggested:
snip-------------------------------------------
"A better protocol to use with most calibers would be to begin at the starting charge weight recommendation and do a "regular work up routine" with the new component. This way as you "work up" through the given range of increments, it would allow you to watch the behavior of the magnum component. This is because while at the starting charge weights the pressure characteristics may not be affected this may change as the powder is incrementally increased.

This would be especially true of the faster pistol powder like AA No. 2, CLAYS, Bullseye and similar speed powders.
This would allow you to monitor and then control over the changed component as you work up the load."
endsnip-------------------------------------------

hope this helps
prof marvel

[Ben Beam]

So it sounds like if I switch to CCI 300 primers and use my .44 special brass from a box of Fiocchi, I can get away using a minimum of 11.2 grains of 2400 and the Berry's 240 gr plated bullets. Am I understanding correctly? If so that would be perfect.

I'll have the Lee manual once my kit arrives, as it is included. Glad to hear it's a good choice.

Thanks, Professor!