Muzzle Crown on C&B gunz

[Cemetery]

Awhile back, there was debate on the yeah or nay of muzzle crowning on C&B guns.

I can't seem to locate this, nor does my google-fu reveal any secrets.

I've got two Uberti 1860s.  One can with a muzzle crown new, and the other did not. 

Wondering if I should have them crowned to match.

What does the hive mind say?

[Mossyrock]

The original Colts weren't crowned.

[Coffinmaker]

Define Muzzle Crown.  If we are describing the rounded over "crown" we see on most guns, No.  I do however, put what I personally call a "Crown" on the barrels of the guns I build.  I use a "Ball" deburring tool.  The most important aspect is the muzzle be square for an even push on the base of the bullet.

The only purpose of the "crown" is protection for the end of the rifling and deburring the end of the rifling.  If the barrel is first cut to length, then squared, then rifled, the crown is superfluous.  Most modern barrels are built the other way around.  The blank is rifled then cut to length and must be deburred.

Coffinmaker

[Professor Marvel]

What Coffin said 

howsomever, since most Italian C&B replicas come with  the squared muzzle, and we have no idea if the "muzzle-squaring guy"
was having a good day, or came back after a 2 bottle of wine lunch, I myslelf like to true up the muzzle with a hand-turned cutter using a bore-riding bushing, followed with a 45 degree chamfering tool ( just because that's what I happen to have) followed by a 45 degree conical grinding stone, followed by 120 and 220 grit wet or dry paper backed by  a 45 degree tapered wood peg (or my thumb if I can't find my peg)  .

I also like to smooth my forcing cone, and make all my chamber mouths "the same size".

Does this make my 1851 or 1860 or Remmy shoot any more accurately?

I dunno.

But it looks pretty.
And it makes me happy, and keeps me occupied
and away from cigarets, whiskey, and wild wild wimmen.

Mrs Marvel seems to appreciate that 

yhs
prof marvel

[Coffinmaker]

What da Perfesseur said.  Wanna have it look purty.  Good point about that two bottle lunch too.  Atz Why I alwayz de-Burr (Crown) Cap Gunz.

Coffinmaker

[Oregon Bill]

Liking your advice, Professor.

[Noz]

I use the Lee case chamfer tool for all chambers, forcing cones and crowns.
Like the Professors says, I don't know if it helps or not but it feels good to me

[Professor Marvel]

Liking your advice, Professor.

Why Thank You Bill - you are therefore added to the "list of facilitators" who encourage my endless babbling 
altho Mrs Marvel just said "He don't need encouragement!"

Say Noz - that is actually what I started out using, until I perfected my other more complex and long winded methodology!

BTW I just finished the "Prof Marvel Time Wasting Method of Crowning Muzzles" on 2 Remmies and an 1873 Model P.
Since I shot 20 yard target beforehand, I now can go out and see if I made them worse!

yhs
prof babbels

[Coffinmaker]

Perfesseur Marvelous,

Exchuse the interruption in your "cause" and "effect" determination.  I have a certain amount of input.  Practical experience fourthwith.  I also added an amount of scientific process to further clarify the ...... information.

The control:  The control is/was an out of the box Pietta .44, completely unmolested other than fitting the Bolt to the cylinder notches as soon I  took it out of the box.

First Test.  Fired 6 rounds from a Sandbag Rest.  25Gr 2f APP, 451 Swaged Ball, seated to the Load.  Testing was interrupted by having to disassemble the gun and get the cap pieces out of the action  twice.  I were annoyed.  Shot a 2 - 2 1/2 inch group all said and done.  There was light leading at the forcing cone (just a trace).

Our Technicians then applied the approved improvements to the control subject.  We added a short 11 degree forcing cone, deburred and polished the breach end of the barrel, deburred (crowned) the muzzle.

Second test:  Fired 6 rounds from and Sandbag Rest.  Same load.  Testing was again interrupted by having to get cap fragments out of the action.  We was again annoyed.  Shot a 2 inch group.  No leading at the forcing cone.

Our Technicians then applied the rest of the approved improvements.  Deburred and polished the action, Deburred and polished the frame and Hammer, Polished the trigger engagement points, Polished the breach face of the cylinder.  Added the Cap Rake and Slix Nipples.

Third test:  Fired 6 rounds from a Sandbag Rest.  Same load.  The test was not interrupted by Cap Fragments.  Shot a 2 inch group.  Same load.  We were not annoyed.  We had copious amounts of fun.  Others admired our control unit.  The control unit really looked GOOD.

Then we expanded the test to shooting from our hind legs.  Aw Krap.  Groups opened up to about 4 1/2 - 5 inches.  Consistently. 

The conclusion:  We can only shoot but just so good.  2 - 2 1/2 inches is about it.  Regardless.  When we shoot from our hind legs, we shoot worse.  The gun doesn't.  We do.  HOWEVER:

WE LOOK DAMN GOOD DOIN IT!!  And THAT,  is a key point. 

Coffinmaker

[hellgate]

Coffinmaker: I wonder if there would have been a great accuracy difference if you had bored out the cylinder chambers to .450-.452 and then shot .454 or .457 balls in it. The Piettas (and other makes) often have undersized chambers for the bore diameter.

[Noz]

Hellgate, I had a professional open the chambers on a pair of Uberti 1860s to .451.Bore slugged at near .452. The average chamber was .448.  I then proceeded to shoot .454 and .457 balls from the modified guns.  They were much poorer with the enlarged chambers than they were  with the small.  I messed with them for a few weeks then sold them to someone that was more interested in their appearance than their shooting.

[Cemetery]

Hellgate, I had a professional open the chambers on a pair of Uberti 1860s to .451.Bore slugged at near .452. The average chamber was .448.  I then proceeded to shoot .454 and .457 balls from the modified guns.  They were much poorer with the enlarged chambers than they were  with the small.  I messed with them for a few weeks then sold them to someone that was more interested in their appearance than their shooting.

My 1860s were used 90% of the time in this years season, I found I had better accuracy with 457's, than 454....which is fine with me, no need to keep different sized round balls around for all my cap gunz.

Anyway, I recently read this on Long Hunter's website with regard to their C&B package;

The latest innovation to the LH Deluxe Percussions finally eliminates the greatest missing piece of the reproduction puzzle.  Correct Cylinder Bore Diameter!  The LH Deluxe 1860 is available in the new .452 cylinder bore to yield the greatest accuracy and power possible.  All Current Uberti 1860 .44 caliber barrels have a .450 groove barrel at the minimum.  The New .452 Bore Cylinders extrude a projectile of correct size to fit the barrel and seal.  Factory Cylinders are .448" - .449" diameter so the ball or conical will be 0.001 - .002" smaller than the barrel.  This creates the gas cutting we all deal with and creates the erratic velocities these pistols are previously attributed with. Any LH Deluxe .44 Caliber with the .452 bore will yield standard deviations as low as 20 fps across a 21 shot spread. (that's without cleaning). These pistols will give incredible accuracy even rivaling modern handguns with correct loading techniques. However, the increased bore diameter mandates the use of .454" or greater diameter balls to prevent chain firing. The .452 Bore is not included with standard custom work.

I find it interesting that you didn't have success with this adjustment, I was thinking of getting a brace of '60's with all the bells and whistles, but for now I'm gonna heed my wallet's reluctance.

[Lucky R. K.]

While a muzzle crown is not something to worry about on the guns we use to play Cowboy, it is an important consideration for muzzle loading arms using a patched round ball.  A muzzle crown allows the patched round ball to be loaded without damage to the patch.

Lucky

[Coffinmaker]

Here be "PART" of the deal.  Let us first understand I can shoot a 2 inch group from a sandbag rest.  Cap Gun, Cartridge gun, rubber band gun ..... doesn't matter.  Without a Ransom Rest, 2 inches is it.  Bestest I can do.  Well, maybe a little better if I move up a bunch closer to the target    So I'm pretty happy with 2 inches.  Since I shoot Gunfighter for CAS, standing on my hind legs, minute of pie plate at 10 - 12 yards is righteous.

ALL the little changes and modifications I listed are incremental.  Tiny little differences.  Some of those differences are like gnats.  Insignificant unless there in your ear.  However, ALL the changes improve functional reliability and make the gun more fun to play with.

With regard to chambers.  If the bore is a nominal 450 or so, the chamber should be at least 455 or 451 to give a good result.  452 with a soft ball is marginally better.  Nice tight fit to the rifling.  When we load a 451 ball into a 448 chamber, we swage the ball down to less than bore size so it just kind of rattles it's way thru the barrel.  Still gives 3 - 4 inch groups though, so not too bad.  I haven't has occasion yet to have a pair of cylinders bored to 452.  Don't know that I want to stock two different size balls.  I also don't know if the difference in accuracy is worth a hundred bucks a gun.  After all, I'm not shooting "Bullseye" with a Cap Gun.  It's relative.

Coffinmaker