Smith Carbine loading info requested (not Spencer but is a 50!)

[Capt'n Jack]

I now own a Smith, my third 50 caliber carbine(Pietta).  I need some advice on loading for this rifle.  What powders?  (Yep, I know they must be black or black sub)  How much powder?  What weight bullet?  What diameter bullet?

My goal is to make cleanup easy (the smell of black powder cleaning makes my wife upset and I can understand) and shooting enjoyable.  The long flash path makes me think black powder subs may be hard to ignite even with musket caps.

Would like to hear from any Smith shooters to know what I should be careful of and what I need to know up front.  Thanks to all in advance, Captn Jack..

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

When I see a question like this, but don't have the experience, I rush to Mister GOOGLE for advice.  

http://www.civilwarguns.com/9812.html

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365939

Often he will refer me to his second cousin, U-Toob.  Lots of stuff out there if you can bypass the guy duplex loading with smokeless and put up with hopelssly amateur film making and awful gun handling.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeMrlfvNd84&feature=related

If you have been following WaddWatsonEllis and his Maynard carbine you will recognize that the Smith is another transitional design that had a place until proper self-contained cartridges were developed.

I assume you have the cartridges, bullets, and a supply of the appropriate percussion caps. I have been told that most brass Smith cartidge cases will accept about 30 grains of blackpowder, but anyway, put enough in the case that the bullet compresses the load slightly when you insert it on top the powder.  Other than that, look for all the advice on cleaning and maintenance applicable to all arms employing blackpowder.

Generally avoid petroleum based lubricants, use a BP compatible bullet lube like SPG, and start your clean-up with soap & water.  If there is an objection to the odour, take it outside until you have the bulk of the cleaning done.

[Capt'n Jack]

Thanks Sir Charles, and I have done that and found as you did some, indeed much, of  the advice is a bid dicey.  Therefore I have posted here to the real experts on all things shooting to get experienced Smith shooters to input their experience, success and failures.  I  do have experience with black powder as referenced by the cleaning remark, and I rather hoped to find someone who has tried the fake black powder to see if the stuff ignites in the Smith.  The path from the nipple to the shell seems long and I suspect that even the musket caps used will not provide reliable ignition (and this was referenced to original rifle experience during the War of Northern Aggression)  But it is never wrong to here good advice repeated.

[Two Flints]

Hi,

Send a Personal Message to Tuolumne Lawman, or Email him at imarangemaster@gmail.com.  He used to shoot a Smith, I believe, and may have the info you are seeking.

Two Flints

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi,

I have been following this thread too 'cause I have been told that the Smith, Gallagher and Maynard could shoot the same bullet
(I suppose *S*) ..... and I really like the Scotch tape thing ... it is so simple that I never thought of that ...
Thank You Sir Charles!

[Arizona Trooper]

Maynards have very slow twist barrels (1 in 72), so bullets that shoot well in Smiths and other 50 cal CW arms may not be so good in a Maynard. I have shot both in N-SSA and had more luck with the Smith (but I still like the Merrill better!)

Pietta Smiths run around .512 groove diameter, which is smaller than an original. Also, many (maybe most) Piettas came with no throat between the chamber and barrel. If yours is one of these, you will want to get a Morse taper reamer (a #3 as I recall) and carefully cut a throat into the breech. If you don't, you will have problems shaving lead in the chamber and accuracy won't be very good.

Use a bullet of 350-375 grains and start with a full charge of FFF in the case. If you bought the reduced charge cases, they will hold the light loads favored by N-SSA shooters, otherwise loads will be about 45 grains. From there, check out the shooting tips page at the N-SSA BB (www.n-ssa.org)

Smiths are really easy to clean. You can do it in about 10 minutes on the back stoop.

Have fun!

[Capt'n Jack]

And to thank all for comments this box for your ammo.  Easy to make, and patterned after an original.  I did make it into two pieces so it can be reused.  I suggest spraying with shellac (the yellow variety is most authentic) to water proof the box and label.  I did make four of these this morning and it took less then an hour even cutting tag stock paper for the printer.

[sharps1863]

Be careful with the clean out screw on the bolster that goes into the flash chamber. It is easy stripped "very fine metric threads" I use the same mold that I use with my Spencer. The Lyman 515139 340 grain, my bore runs .514 om my Smith Artillery model. Here is a link to some shell tubes http://www.shelltube.us/smith_comp_liner.html They are reduced load. I have not tried them myself. I have plenty of the black Plastic tubes. I shoot 45grn of 2f in them. When you load your cartridges put a small piece of cheap thin ply toilet paper in 1st, to keep any powder from falling out through the flash hole. I think you will enjoy your Smith.But stay away from the molds listed on Gun Broker that say they are for a pietta smith carbine, They are undersize and will not work.

[Capt'n Jack]

Still hoping for some experience with black powder subs.  From what I have read, they work but give slow and/or inconsistent ignition.  It is possible that someone has used something other then pyrodex which works better.  Black powder is getting hard to find locally and I do understand why.  I have a couple of cans, but I would like to move to a sub for a lot of reasons.  Thanks to all who have replied, I can always use all the help I can get.

[matt45]

I can't speak for anything but Spencer and Henry replica's, or anything other than brass self contained cases, but I have never had a problem w/ ignition vis-a-viz 777

[Capt'n Jack]

A request for a pic fullfilled and also pic of ammo box above.

[boilerplatejackson]

Currently I am working on powders and loads for my new Smith Carbine. I bought a .512 RCBS mould and cast up some hard lead
bullets. I use the black plastic cases from DGW and like them very well. I have shot Triple Seven and Pyrodex Select. I am pleased
with the positive ignition from both of these powders. The Pyrodex Select is a better alternative as it can better be compressed with
a 45 grain powder charge. I also want to experament with some 50 cal. vegtable wads. This should make for a more accurate
load. I did like the 35 yard groups the smith shot. All were on paper and most in the black. I need to tame down the factory sear, and main spring. It is difficult to get tight groups with a 10# trigger pull. Overall I love to shoot the Smith.

[smittyc7]

I have a Smith carbine also, and I use the small 1/4" stick on dots.  Avery 6720.  The cap burns right through, I've never had to cap twice.  You get 480 for about $2.25.

Have a Sharps and a Spencer also.  I prefer the Spencer. 

[El Supremo]

A couple more tips:

Some black powder substitutes are a bit stronger than traditional black and are not VOLUME equivalents.  Contact the manufacturer for details.

Also, PYRODEX produces a fouling that is NOT the same chemical composition as produced by traditional black powder. The PYRODEX fouling must be THOROUGHALLY removed soon after use.  Clean VERY carefully with room temperature WATER, not boiling water, as IF CORROSIVE CENTERFIRE PRIMED ammunition has been fired.  A quick wipe and an oiling WILL NOT SUFFICE.  Use SEVERAL water wetted patches.  The bore and flash channel must be inspected for residual fouling and possible corrosion for the next couple days. 

Regards,
El Supremo / Kevin Tinny

[Bunk Stagnerg]

 
I have both a Sharps and a Smith carbine. I had both fouling and ignition problems with the Sharps it would need more than one cap to get ignition and would completely lock up after 5 or 6 shots. The fouling problem was solved with the Hahn Machin Works sleeve modification.

While it was being fixed I did shoot the Smith and had ignition problems with it also. I had been using some old 'US Musket "caps and CCI #300 caps with complete reliability in both guns but when my supply ran out and I ordered some CCI Musket caps via internet.

That was when the trouble of Failure To Fire started. A little investigation showed the "Multiple Use" CCI caps #301 were relabeled "Reenactor" and were useless to get ignition down the rather circuitous fire path of either gun. When I got the Sharps back the ignition problem was the same. When I would finally got it to fire, sometimes after 4 or 5 caps, reliability was beyond expectation. I shoot for fun not competition, but I expect to have reliability equal to the period, and I would appear, CCI caps did not meet that standard.

The only way I could get the CCI reenactor caps to work were either use clear fingernail polish to stick a small quantity of FFFFg powder in each one or prime the cone before each shot with a cone primer.

That really took the fun out of shooting. Then I tried RWS #1081 musket caps and the problem was solved. I still had an occasional FTF, but is was rare rather than usual.

My opinion of CCI musket caps is pretty low along with the way they size their caps used in my 1860 Army and 1851 Navy revolvers.
You may gather I am not too happy with CCI

Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Snakeeater]

The early Navy Arms (Peitta) Smiths, made in the early 1990s, had some issues. Many of the bores had to be lapped if not relined in order to shoot accurately. During production, the barrels had received heat treating before being rifled, and the metal was harder at either end of the breech than in the center of the bore, causing the cutter to bite more in the center than at the two ends. This meant that the bore was larger near the center than at either end, causing the bullets to strip out of the rifling as well as leading problems. Of the two Smiths I bought, the first one I bought (made in 1991) was better than the second (made in 2000). The last was like a hose pipe - no consistency. One round would go low, the next 10 inches higher. I had Bobby Hoyt to reline it, and after it would drill one ragged hole!

Although I experimented with various bullets, the Lyman 141139 seemed as good as any. When Rapine was in business, they made a similar bullet #515365 (365 grains) that for a time, the machinist helping out was producing oval bullets. But when I got the mould replaced, the new "round" bullets shot very tight using just 35 grains of FFFg. I used the brass reduced capacity tubes only because the black plastic tubes tend to stretch after use, when they don't get hung in the bore or you cannot get them to slide into the bore, period. Also tried the orange rubber tubes but the bullets kept falling out when handled on the firing line. With the Pietta Smith, you need to liberally lubricate the bore before shooting and between relays if shirmishing. Since you are shooting a "push" gun there is no sense in sizing a bullet from a .515 mould down to .512, and you can shoot the bulllets right out of the mould. Just insure that the edge of the bullet base is crisp and not rounded, as the latter may lead to uneven pressure. Again, the Smith responds best to consistency.

I use Hoppes No. 9 solvent to clean the bore and usually get the bore clean after less than 10 patches using a .50 cal jag rod. I would not recommend using hard lead unless you want leading at the muzzle. Plumber's lead is 95/5 is aboiut as pure as needed. The Pietta rifling is very shallow and responds best to pure lead bullets. Before buying the Navy Arms Smith, I had shot a Yeck replica Smith which had a greater depth rifling and could handle harder lead just as my Romano Spencer does, but the Yeck just didn't have the eye appeal of the Navy Arms product. Before going to the black reduced capacity plastic tubes, Mike Yeck had sold a while nylon plastic tube that was larger inside and could hold up to 45 grains. Folks wanting to shoot lighter charges often loaded cream of wheat or grits as a filler on top the charge to hold it at the base of the tube for consistent ignition For sighting, I use a 6 o'clock sight picture (top of the front sight blade at the bottom of the vee of the rear sight) for 50 yards, and 12 o'clock sight picture (top of the vee) for 100 yards. This way I can shoot the same load for either distance without making up special ammo to change the range. Back in the 1950s before anyone began making plastic tubes to fit the Smith, many early N-SSA skirmishers bought one metallic cartridge for the breech, and loaded the carbines as muzzle-loaders.

[FuriousFritz]

I load my brass shells with about 36 to 38 grs FFG holy black and use a selfmade bullet (see attached picture)
This bullet weighs 370grs with a dia of .515

[Snakeeater]

I load my brass shells with about 36 to 38 grs FFG holy black and use a selfmade bullet (see attached picture)
This bullet weighs 370grs with a dia of .515

As self-made bullet or you just modified an existing mold? The reason I ask is I recently acquired a modified Lee 90255 mold for the 515-455 50-70 bullet that had the base milled off removing the bottom grease groove reducing the OAL to 0.8-in and the weight to 392 grains. I bought it from Joe Salter to try both in my Spencer as well as the Smith.

[mehavey]

See:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569470

...for my Pietta Smith approach

[Snakeeater]

I finally gave up using the black plastic tubes altogether even though I had the loader-sizer and even a tube resizing die to return the stretched tubes to their correct size. The problem that I had with the black plastic tubes was that after about the second time the tubes were used, the flat base bullets (even sized .511) pushed the plastic out enough that it made loading difficult, and if you failed to carry a cleaning rod with you to the line, the flair on the tube made extracting them from the breech just as difficult to pull out of the chamber with greasy fingers. At one point, I kept a pair of mold handles to use like pliers to pull the empty tubes out of the breech. I finally quit shooting my Smith because I was shooting far too many rounds for the number of hits, and went back to a muzzle-stuffer. And even though I may not get off more than six or seven rounds during a relay with my C.S. Richmond Carbine, if I need to shoot that many, I don't miss any targets with the muzzle-stuffer. But this also allows me to use the same ammo for my Model 1855 Rifle for 50 and 100 yards.