Merwin .44 bullets and fit ?

[charleston pride]

Hello everyone
had a question.
I have a Merwin Hulbert .44 army frontier model number 2

i found some original .44 bullets and it seems like they are loose when i load the gun.

the base slides around a little and it made me question the caliber of the gun or is this normal? (no 44-40's are to long)

does anyone have the same experience?

thank you

chris

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

It is always difficult to pin down information about Merwin Hulberts because they changed things from time to time, and all the factory records burned up in a fire. The most authoritative book on the subject is Art Phelps' book The Story of Merwin Hulbert & Co. Firearms, but frankly I find his writing to be so biased that it is sometimes difficult to separate fact from myth.

As far as I know, 44 caliber Merwin Hulberts were chambered for three cartridges; 44 Russian, 44-40 (44 WCF), and 44 Merwin Hulbert. The 44 Merwin Hulbert cartridge is an obsolete cartridge and it has not been manufactured for many years.

So the first question I have for you is, what are the headstamps, if any, on the cartridges you have?

The next question is are there any caliber markings on the gun?

Generally speaking Merwin Hulberts chambered for 44-40 were marked CALIBER WINCHESTER 1873 on the left side of the frame. This is because 44-40 was the most popular chambering of the Winchester Model 1873 rifle at the time. The two Merwins I have that are chambered for 44-40 have cylinders right about 1.560 long. It seems you have already determined your cylinders are too short for 44-40 cartridges.





The one MH I have chambered for 44 Russian is marked RUSSIAN MODEL on the left side of the frame.
This one has a cylinder right about 1.480 long.
Sorry the markings are a bit indistinct, it is an old gun and it has been refinished.





I do not own a MH chambered for the Merwin Hulbert cartridge, nor do I have a 44 MH cartridge in my collection. If your MH has no cartridge markings on it, perhaps it is chambered for the 44 Merwin Hulbert cartridge. I really do not know.

This is the only photo I have been able to come up with of a 44 Merwin Hulbert cartridge. It was made by the Union Metallic Cartridge Company. The head stamp is U.M.C. 44 MH&Co. I believe this cartridge is a bit longer than a 44 Russian, and not as long as a 44-40.




I also cannot help you too much with cartridge dimensions. The best I can do is give you some information from Phelps' book. Caliber was actually .42. (.416, .420, .421). Rims varied in diameter; .489, .499, .500. Some rims had a pronounced bevel. Case head dimensions varied too, .437, .438, .440. Overall Length; 1.525, 1.512, 1.526. Case Length; 1.140, 1.157, 1.159. Phelps notes say the cartridge appeared to be a slightly undersized 44 Colt.

In addition, a reprint of the 1887 catalog states that the 44 Merwin Hulbert cartridge held a powder charge of 30 grains of Black Powder.

Lastly, my friend Happy Trails used to use 41 Magnum brass, of all things, to make up cartridges for his Merwin Hulbert chambered for the 44 Merwin Hulbert Cartridge. I believe he trimmed the brass down, but I do not know how much. He may have been putting a bevel on them too.

[charleston pride]

I really appreciate the detailed response.
the gun has no markings, except on the barrel with patent information.
i did notice that the 5 bullets i have are all slightly different.
the only other markings are 440 16 on the inside. which is not the serial number of 5322
thats it.
your gun looks really nice refinished.
maybe i should do the same?
i did find some .41 rounds that i could fire.

[Blair]

Driftwood Johnson,

That is a very good reply. Thank you.

My large frame MH has no caliber markings on it. My understanding is that those revolvers set up for the .44 MH do not have these.

I have used .41 Mag brass to make up rounds for a .44 S&W American revolver. They worked well in the Smith but not so well in my .44 MH. They did not extract very well in the MH. The rim diameter of the .41 cases was just a little too small.
The Smith (star) extraction system worked better due to the fact that the star lifted the cases out because it wrapped around about 1/3rd. of the diameter of the rim.
Modifications to a .44 S&W American cartridge case maybe a better option, if those are available?
My best,
Blair   

[Earl Brasse]

You may want to make a "chamber cast" to be able to measure what you really have.

Driftwood has listed excellent information. (as usual).

The thing is that one never knows what some frontier gunsmith had in mind.
It may have been drilled out to whatever cartridges were at hand or that the owner wanted, sometimes with less than great results.

Big question will be what is the real size of your bore, chamber mouth & chamber?

I have a Smith & Wesson .44 American that was converted to.44 Russian.
I really wish they would have had something better than a wood bit. 
It's really had on the brass with all the swirl marks in there.

Still... it is better than a Webley I had that they drilled to take .45 Colt.
They used a wobbly drill that left oval brass.
Worse yet, since the bullets hung out the front too far, they just filed off the forcing cone until they would clear.

Be careful out there.

Best of luck with your Merwin.

[Montana Slim]

A friend dropped by with some show/tell stuff.
One appeared to be a 44 M-H caliber early open top w/scoops, single action.
A trimmed 44-mag case looked feasible, but was slightly loose in the chamber. The muzzle & rifling was in good shape & my bore muzzle-gage said about .43 caliber at the grooves. IMO, using the 41 mag brass would require a heel bullet.

I had little time for my examination, but pondered reaming the chambers to 44 Russian....might be feasible.
some other slight alterations may be needed...Brass too thick? could trim the cylinder slightly.
It needed some attention to get the cylinder stop working, but the owner decided not to let me hang on to it for a bit of tuneup on the lockwork. I'm guessing its similar to a Smith & Wesson.

Coincidentally I handled a few M-H revolvers at the local auction house (more than a few years back) which were nice condition, manufacturer clearly marked, but no caliber designation of Russian model, 1873, or such...hum... I inquired about caliber & a friend who works there took them to the back room. Came back a few minutes later and told me that 44 Russian dropped right in one of them. I wondered at the time if it could have been modified from 44 M-H at some point.

Slim

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Here is a cartridge case dimension chart. Scroll down to ".44 M&H".

http://www.cartridge-corner.com/revolver.htm

[DJ]

Charleston Pride--

If your .44 M&H cartridges are loose in the chamber, there is a very good chance you're dealing with either a .44 Russian or a .44-40, unless the cylinder has been altered, in which case you could be dealing with any number of different calibers.  I recommend doing a chamber cast of a couple of the chambers to see if you can narrow it down. 

Also, you mentioned that you found some .41 rounds to shoot--hopefully you meant black powder ammo using .41 Mag brass.  If you meant real .41 Magnum ammo, then you should NOT shoot that in a Merwin, because the cylinder walls are pretty thin, and the metal is pretty soft--it's just not strong enough for that cartridge.

--DJ