38 Special-Black powder loading

[Crow Choker]

Hi to all: Bought a Uberti 1860 Richards-Mason shooter this spring (5.5" barrel) and one of DD's Snakebite 38 molds. Have around 400 of the Snaker's cast, sized, and lubed-equal number of 38 cases sized, belled, and primed. Ready to start dropping some FFF black Goex in the cases and being new to loading black in this caliber, I wonder what any of you who have been loading 38's with Snakebites or something in the 158 grain bullet range have been dropping weight/volume wise for powder.
   I'm not new to reloading with either black or smokeless. I know the old rule of thumb when nobody has a number value is to drop black to near the top of the case, seat the bullet, thereby compressing the powder. I like to be a little more exact, ie have an idea of the grain weight/volume of the powder for records if nothing else.
   I took some FFF Goex and a Lee 1.3cc scoop and weighed some 'scooping's'. Just dipping the scoop into a container of FFF black, level to the top, gave an average of 18.5 grains, filling the case 3/16" from the case mouth. Taking the same Lee 1.3cc scoop, filling and giving it a tap allowing the powder to settle then rescooping it to level, gave an average of 19.5 grains (+1 grain) and filled the 38 case 2/16" from the mouth. Either one would give adequate compression, maybe even the 18.5 grain would be to much, haven't tried either as I just primed all the cases. Goex in their website recommends 16.0 grains, which I haven't checked to see how far the powder would be from the case mouth. To me, 16.0 grains sounds a little light. I shoot around 20 grains of FFF in my 36 caliber cap n' ball Navies, so I'm not worried that using the 1.3cc scoop would be to much powder, guess it comes down to if the case can hold 18-19.5 grains and the 38 caliber snakebite. My soft lead bullets all averaged around 160.0 grains, sized them .358".
   What have you who have been loading 38 Spec's with black been doing and had the most success with? Thankee for any response. CC

    ****07/28 Note: Measured out 16.0 grains of FFF, dumped in 38 case, level of powder was 1/4" from mouth. Seemed that not enough compression could be attained. Weighed 17.5 g of FFF and powder level was 5/32" from mouth (just 1/32" below the 18.5 grain level of 3/16"). Think maybe either the 17.5 or the 18.5 grains would work for good compression. Have to do some trail and error bullet seating and shooting.*****

[Coffinmaker]

Hey Choker!!

I happen to have exactly the information your looking for.    Fill the case up till you get good compression and crimp tight!!   

Nanny Nanny Poo Poo 

I'm kinda Perky today.  Yepper!!

Coffinmaker

[wildman1]

CM that's a new concept.  wM1

[Crow Choker]

Coffinmaker, when are you not feelin perky? Believe I've got it figured out what the min/max amount of powder to use, but just searching for what's been used and has worked for other reloaders/shooters.

Sie haben einen guten Tag!!!!!!!

[Blair]

CC,

I use a 160 gr. round nose bullet, (Revolver only) in a .38 Spec. case, with 16 gr. of fffg. BP.
This is in an R&D made '51 and '61, type 2 RM Navy revolvers for .38 Colt, with a .357 bore sleeve (no heel .375 bullet).

I found that the .38 Spec. cases fit well into this rather short Colt cylinder type 2. However, the round nosed bullet needed to be seated rather deeply into the cartridge case, with a very strong crimp.
It works very well and hits the target steels pretty hard without heavy recoil. Very enjoyable to shoot.
Hope this helps.
My best,
Blair

[Delmonico]

I found out 38 Special cases need sorted by brand and type more than any other caliber I've ever worked with, capacities vary a lot.

[w44wcf]

Historically speaking, the original .38 Special B.P. factory cartridges were loaded with 21 1/2 grs. of b.p.



That being said, those early cases were of SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket) construction and were a bit more spacious than current brass.  In addition, hollow base bullets were used.  Dissected UMC cartridges indicated a compression of .12"

Using your modern brass and a settled charge that will produce .05 - .15" of compression will work just fine.

COMPRESSION determination
One can take a fired case with with the crimp ironed out so that a bullet is a slip fit into the case.
Load an amount of b.p. into the case, place  the bullet down on top of it and then measure the o.a.l.
Compare that o.a.l. to the o.a.l. of the finished cartridge.
Adjust the powder charge as necessary until the amount of compression you desire is reached.


Have fun!
w44wcf  

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I found out 38 Special cases need sorted by brand and type more than any other caliber I've ever worked with, capacities vary a lot.

I agree. It also seems to me that rim thickness can vary - just a smidge.

I use 18.5 gr of GOEX FFFg under a 140 gr. RCBS CM. For your 160 gr, I think 18.0 would do well. I use a homemade wad punched from pulp egg carton with a 3/8" hollow punch soaked in melted BP lube. Fish them out before the lube congeals and dry on some plastic bag or foil. (And I don't "wonder" why it costs so much?) The wad takes the space of .5 gr of BP or so.

[Coffinmaker]

OK, Ok, I'll get serious    And if you believe that    For myself it's a simple formula.  I dump just enough 3f or 2f APP in the case for
either a 105Gr Truncated Cone or 125Gr Truncated Cone bullet to just touch the APP.  The Truncated Cone bullets run thru a Toggle
Rifle like wet grain thru a goose and the recoil is almost imperceptible. 

Now, as far as the actual powder charge in some measurable form, I have NO CLUE!!  It simply doesn't matter.  I load all my metallic
Suppositories the exact same way.  .38s, .44s, .45s, 38-55s, and Cap Guns exactly the same way.  Fill it up, stuff a projectile in the
hole and crimp the sucker.  They always go BOOMBA and ring the wiley steels.  Well, I don't actually "Crimp" my Cap Guns.  I've
found the chamber mouth just a touch too thick for an effective crimp.    

Coffinmaker

PS:  Almost forgot.  EXACTLY the same load for my Handguns that require Suppositories.  Ain't much recoil there either.  Wit 38s, that is. 

[Crow Choker]

Coffinmaker--yer a hoot, bet you'd be fun to shoot with. Thanks all for the info. I measured the distance from the base of the Snakebite's to the crimp groove (3/8"), layed it along side a 38 case, marked it and then measured the four grain weights of the FFF I weighed and checked their level and distance to case mouth to check compression depth. The 17.5, 18.5, and 19.5 all gave around a compression of around 3/16", plus/minus a tad. The 16.0 grain loading would give around a 3/32 or a hair over 1/16". Figure the 17.5 and/or the 18.5 would be a good place to start, Sir Charles's recommendation of 18.0 g sounds like a good compromise, putting w44's compression range in the mix. I've never had a problem with 38 cases yielding various capacities. Of course, I've never loaded black in any of them either. Mostly target smokeless loads. I know there is a wide range with rifle brass, esp bottleneck ones. Winchester ones are always reported to have more case capacity over Remingtons and Federals. Military ones have less than commercial.

I've got 300 38 Spec cases all primed and ready to make ammo out of, I'll do like I mostly always do, try around two or three different loadings, but for the type of shooting I'll be doing with them I won't be trying to get cloverleaf groups out of them, but would be ok. A half a grain here or there won't make that much of a difference. Coffinmaker, your method works, guess my German heritage of being exact and keeping records plays to much in my reloading. I can give you the exact number of bullets and round balls I've cast since August of 1979 when I started casting and exact number of rounds of handgun and rifle ammo, brass used, powder dropped, type of primer, bullet, etc since I started metallic reloading in Feb of 1976. Doesn't mean much, not needed for fun shootin, but gotta do it.      

[Delmonico]

Take a handful of mixed brass cases and weigh them, they show a lot of variation in weight, they have a lot of difference between capacity.   

[Blair]

 I don't believe there is enough volume variation in different cartridge case manufactures to be the cause of any great difference when using BP to load .38 Special.
That is what this topic is about, is it not?
My best,
Blair

[wildman1]

You are correct. Set the powder measure and go. Some just get a little more compression than others. wM1

[Coffinmaker]

A long Time ago .... In a Galaxy Far Far Away ..... In a land time FORGOT!!  I was (gasp) A Bench Rest Competitor!!  I shot small bore (220 Swift) and large bore (7mm Manglem) and suffered Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Stage 5 (Hopeless).  What I went through to prep
each and every case was ....... frightening.  What I went through to select each and every bullet ....... disgusting.  I knew as much about
primers as John Boy.  I even charted the pressure curve of an Elephants Fart.  Wasn't that fun you betcha.  

Just so I could punch a string of bullets through ........ ONE HOLE.  I had recipes based on weather conditions and the phase of the moon.
I could calculate the drift effect of the earths rotation at 600 yards (well, my calculator could, I add 2 & 2 and get 5).  It took me as long
to load 100 rounds .......... I won't go there.  Makes me shiver.

Then, after finding the cure (Cowboy Action with ........ Real Gunpowder) for all those wicked habits, I discovered much to my chagrin,
NONE of that stuff mattered.  Not one bit.  The variations we get loading BP or Subs just don't show much down range effect, if any
at all.  As long as you get enough powder inna case to eject the payload the result will be the same ....... KLANG!!  SO I BURN'D my
recipe books, loading tables, ballistics charts, and stuff then hung a spent 220 swift case outside the shop in effigy.  I feel so much
bedder.

Now:  If you absolutely must know the EXACT and Correct load, pour som powder inna case until you know your gonna compress it, or
not, depending, then weigh what ya got.  It'll change for the next case, but, nobody, least of all the target, will notice.

Coffinmaker

PS::  ALMOST FORGOT ...... Thanks for the Compliment Choker.  I try to have fun onna range too.  I figure when I screw sumpthin up, it
should be entertaining.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Gee whiz guys
It ain't rocket science, it is simple so don't overthink it, don't IBM it just put in enough FFFg Gun Powder and stuff in a bullet that will slightly compresses the powder, crimp it and let it rip!
The medicine for my .45 Colt guns is a Cowboy Special (.45 Short) case with 1.3 c/c volume of FFFg Gun Powder and a 210 Big Lube bullet crimped in the crimp groove. I have no idea about the weight of powder or how fast it goes, but it hits the Cody Dixon 100 yard target about 12" below the aim point through my 1860 Henry rifle and never fails on the rifle targets. It is a rip snorter on revolver targets and drives the nitro guys (bless their hearts)  nuts.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk Stagner

[Crow Choker]

As Bunk posted "Gee Whiz Guys"-I was just askin what some of you have been using for a powder charge in 38 Spec cases. Thank each and every one on you. Ya, I know I can pour powder to the top and seat and go out and ignite the primer, said that in my first post. I just like to be a little more precise in knowing what I'm loading. Always done it that way, probably always will. I'm not as bad as I used to be. Back in the early days I'd load my pistol rounds like they were bench rest MOA rounds. I'd set my powder measure for a little less than needed, then use a powder trickler to drop the last few tenths of a grain. Finally realized that wasn't needed for the type of shootin I was doing. Same went for trying to get the Nth degree on PPC 38 Spec target loads. One time loaded up 50d rounds of Bullseye starting at 2.5 grains, then proceeded to 50 rds at 2.6 g, all the way up to 3.0 g. Found that was an effort in futility as shooting double action at a silhouette target under time didn't need pinpoint accuracy. Like you said in your post Coffinmaker-that was in a galaxy far away, but I'm still methodical when it comes to some things. Guess even though I'm shooting black powder in 'old timey' guns, I don't have to 'load by the seat of my pants' by just 'dumping and go'. My neighbor and I down the road don't mow our lawns the same, but we both get the job done.

"Anywhoo", as "Rifle' always said (where is he anyway?) all you take care, as I advised Coffinmaker, be fun to shoot with ya. Enjoy all your posts and information Thanks for the info. Maybe today after lawn mowing (seems I'm doing it about every four days here in N. Iowa-after the 5th a baling crew is needed), I will start loading them thar 38's and make some smoke. Need to fire up a ROA I recently acquired to. Crow Choker

[Coffinmaker]

AWRIGHT JOUZ GUYZ!!

Dis has been a really fun thread.  We need more ...... FUN ..... on a more regular basis .... I like being regular ..... oops, different topic,
but here,  Just like there (over there somewhere) we need to have FUN!! 

As I am/waz likin to say at the end of my beginning of match safety spells "If you Cannot, or Are Not, going to have FUN, Just GO HOME"

Coffinmaker

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Had fun today despite the close to 100 temp with matching humidity.
Black powder cartridge gun fighter and with one little mishap a clean match by losing sight of one target on the sixth stage.
But I always have fun sometimes a bit of frustration, but fun.
Bunk

[Montana Slim]

If your not trying to meet a specific OAL, for instance for a rifle cartridge ,it doesn't hurt to deep seat the slug in he case.
I've loaded a lot of 38s with BP, most lately a pair of 1851 R-Ms (sounds familiar, eh). Not shooting in a rifle, so I'm using a lighter bullet. Instead of hitting the crimping groove, I'm seating to the shoulder of the ogive & lightly crimping there. This solidly compresses the mere 16.5 grains of FF powder (my "fav" granulation for cartridges). The solid compression just means a tad more or less depending on cartridge case brand. I gave these a good test beforehand to avoid any "wimp" load comments from my pards  And they pass with flying colors. Great round for FC Gunfighter when I shoot with a a small posse. Hate to work myself too hard loading up my C&B double-quick & trying to keep up with some posse duties, too.

To improve suitability of any bullet with BP, lube the bullet's groove(s) and also the crimping groove. Extra lube! Then set to deep seat the bullet as described above.

BTW, with all the ammo on-hand at my place, I've sorted all my nickle plated cased to be used for BP. The finish helps identify them and cleans up quickly.

Slim

[Crow Choker]

LOADING AND SHOOTING REPORT!!!!!
Hello All: Thought I'd give an update on my 38 Spec loadings with FFF and DD's Snakebite bullet. After reviewing all posted and readin up on all I could muster up, I loaded 12 rds with 18.5 g of Goex FFF and seated some Snakebite's. They were compressed approx. 3/16" of an inch. I loaded up thee ol' 1860 RM (1st time ever poppin a primer with it) and made some smoke. My first shots were at 15 yds, aimed first at the 6 o'clock spot on the target and that's where it hit. Aimed the last five at the bulls eye paper target, three hit approx. in a small group 3" or so to the left, the remaining were 2-3" to the right. This was from a two handed hold. Went back to 25 yds, aimed at the six position on the target and that's where that one hit, so the remaining five were aimed at the bullseye. Not as tight as from 15 yds, but within a 6" group. These shots were fired one handed. Not a cloverleaf grouping, but well enough to clang any metal or make believers out of cans.

I loaded up another 150 rounds using the 1.3 cc Lee dipper, slightly rounded at the top, using Winchester SP primers and assort cases. I did notice that the Snakebite bullet, which has a long 'snout' on it, compared to normal 150 g SWC's, came close to the end of the Colt RM cylinder. Not enough to hinder cylinder rotation, but within .005 or so. This won't bother my 357 chambered Ruger Vaquero. Even stuck five in a S&W Model 60 2", had plenty of space left in the cylinder. Shooting them in that Model 60 would be something! I've hardly ever had to trim 38 cases, due to the fact I've shot mostly target and low fps/velocity rounds through them. Will have to take note of any further loadings with them so I don't get over length rounds. I did crimp in the crimping groove. Montana Slim's suggestion of crimping further up the bullets ogive has been taken into consideration-thanks Slim. The remaining 150 cases I have primed, ready for powder and bullet, I may reduce the powder some to see what that does, maybe taking Slims suggestion into play also. Sir Charles; do you use the egg carton wad for just filler, lubrication, or both? Happy with the results of the 12 I shot, maybe this weekend, I'll do so more shooting with them. I tried unsuccessfully twice to download several pictures of the target and one with gun, bullets, and finished rounds, would have had more luck tossing a rock at a bucket 100 feet away and getting a hole in one.