Kirst Konverters for 58s? Tell me more about them...

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I am trying to find out more info on the Kirst Konverters for the 58 Rems.

I understand they are 5shot 45lc/acp and can shoot BP or smokeless...

What have folks found out about these...good...bad...ugly?

Any recommended loads for using in a Pietta?

[BlaiseNSaddles]

HAd two of them for the Pietta's.  5-shot with a 6-slot that was about .22 sized to put the hammer down on for safety.  These were the ported and gated jobs and even little ol' me managed to make the grooves in the guns.

I am not sure about .45ACP but they handled .45 Schofield just fine and really was different (a lot less recoil) then the .45LCs.

Mainly used black powder and/or BP subs loaded to manufactueres data and again no problems other then they bound up real fast with real BP.  Smokeless was to the conversion specifications - cowboy loads not full high end.

I also had one that had the R&D drop in and it worked fine also but the ported and gated obviously made it quite nice to load and unload.

[Oldelm]

I also had one that had the R&D drop in and it worked fine also but the ported and gated obviously made it quite nice to load and unload.

Doc,.......I was just wondering if you used the Kirst ejector rod assembly with their gated conversion, or did you just use something to poke through the chamber to eject the cartridges? If you did get the ejector rod assembly, how did you like its function,....smooth & easy, worth the extra $$ ...??

Thanks!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I would also like to know if the Kirst conversion is as accurate as the R&D in the Ubertis? Any pards out there who has both that would be able to share this?

[BlaiseNSaddles]

I also had one that had the R&D drop in and it worked fine also but the ported and gated obviously made it quite nice to load and unload.

Doc,.......I was just wondering if you used the Kirst ejector rod assembly with their gated conversion, or did you just use something to poke through the chamber to eject the cartridges? If you did get the ejector rod assembly, how did you like its function,....smooth & easy, worth the extra $$ ...??

Thanks!

No, I never got the rods, I just had a little screwdriver to poke out any reluctant brass. 

[jiminy criquet]

It's much easier and faster to just drop out the cylinder to unload spent shells.  Although with the .45ACP you can/could just catch the cartridge lip with your nail and slide out the empties thru the loading port.

I believe the .45ACP 1858 Remington Kirsts were discontinued, although someone may still have some on the shelves (ditto for the .38 Special 1858 Remington Navy cylinders).

[I Ben Robbed]

One fella in our local club has the Kirst Konverter with the ejector rod.  He seems to have alot of trouble with the rod sticking, except when its going the wrong way.  It tends to fall out the front when he shoots the gun.  I dont know if that's an assembly problem or if it is common.  His is the only one I've ever seen.  I looked at both when I bought mine, and I preferred the R&D design.  If I wanted a loading gate and the ability to load my ammo without removing the cylinder, I'd have bought something other than a 58 Remmie.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

It tends to fall out the front when he shoots the gun.

All the ones I've seen pictures of have a notch filed in the top of the loading lever to hold it in place while shooting.

[jiminy criquet]

Since I don't have the ejector rod installed on any of my three conversions either, (2 of which have shortened barrels, and the one with the original length barrel has a non-ported backplate) I can't say how they would work or not.  (Although Will is correct, the loading lever is supposed to be notched for the ejection rod, and the rod wouldn't disengage unless the loading lever dropped during firing....which it's not supposed to do.)
Although I think if I was going to go that route, I would probably buy and install a Colt Peacemaker ejector rod and housing instead.  In other words, remove the original Remington loading lever, install the cylinder pin retaining clip/spring, and braze on the new Peacemaker ejector rod housing.
Once you port the frame there's legally no going back to percussion anyways

By the way, I had trouble with recoil disengaging one of my .45 ACP cylinder pin retaing clips (the 'stock' replacement retaining clip engages the cylinder pin only about 1/8"), so I made a new one out of damascus steel that engages the cylinder pin a good 1/4".  I'll have to take and post a picture of it...as the damascus pin against the nickel frame definitely looks 1800's

[Jubel]

I agree with Doc Evie. I really like the 45 S&W Schofield round. I use the Kirst cartridge Konverters for that reason. I have now four (4) 1858 Remies 2 are Pietta and 2 are Uberti. I have the Civil War Konverter on one of the Ubertis looks like a working cap N ball, but with the convenience of a cartridge loader. I hear R&D is now machining for the Schofield round if you ask for it.

[Smokin Gun]

Once you port the frame there's legally no going back to percussion anyways

Jimminy I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by that statement...do you mean you register your Rev when you port or convert it? If so that's what confused me. It's not a requirement here unless you go to buy it as a cartridge gun, or sell it and relinquish ownership. As far as I know.

[Jubel]

Smoken:

That's the way it is here, ya cannot transfer it as a Cap n Ball/non-firearm after the porting. But no need to register unless you do, (as a dealer that is) and a sale between individuals is still private treaty.

[jiminy criquet]

It means that under current Federal law, as soon as you physically permanantly alter the percussion gun to shoot metallic cartridges, such as porting the frame, you have now 'manufactured' a firearm, and can no longer legally sell the gun without approval from the BATF (or whatever they call themselves these days). 

i.e. Putting the percussion cylinder back in a ported gun and attempting to sell it is a violation of Federal firearms laws, and probably state laws too, depending on your jurisdiction (as is selling the gun with the conversion cartridge installed)

In other words, a conversion gun is in your family forever


From the ATF online FAQ:
(A7) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms.
However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from
imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be
approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency. [18 U. S. C. 922( o), (r), (v), and 923, 27 CFR 178.39, 178.40, 178.41 and 179.105]
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#h1

[Presidio]

Anywhooo, back to the original question.....I don't shoot with the Kirst, but, with the R&D conversions.  Been thinking 'bout gettin' a set of new 58's and havin' them ported fer the Kirst.

I know Marshall Will, Im'a jest usin it fer an excuse ta but more Remi's......but, it's yer fault that it's a perfect excuse

BTW, anybody kow what the tolerances are with cartridges with the Kirst.  Come ta find out, that my R&D's didn't like Winchesters or any brand of bullet over 225 grain.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I know Marshall Will, Im'a jest usin it fer an excuse ta but more Remi's......but, it's yer fault that it's a perfect excuse

I'll proudly take the blame for that one. In fact, I may use it myself. I've been thinking about the Kirst gated conversion or a soon-to-be R&D gated conversion. I shoot 38's and Walt says he will be re-introducing his 6-shot .38 one again. I guess I'll wait and see who comes out with one first. I have a pair of R&D drop-ins right now but there are times when a gate would be a distinct advantage. I can't find anyone who has shot both to give me a comparison. If you beat me to it, please let me know how the accuracy is compared to your R&D's. That could have a bearing on my decision. Thanks.

[Presidio]

Ya say they're comin' out with a gated R & D?  Dad-durn-it!   Now I can't make up muh mind to which I want.   Guess, I'ma gonna havta work at doin' both.  Onliest way I'll know fer shore which is the better product....heh, heh, heh.

Course, bein honest an all, it'll gonna take me at least a year ta save my earnin's enuf ta do it.

Marshall, kin ya tell me more 'bout that gated R & D?  Curiousity is a gettin' ta me real bad.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I don't know that much about the R&D one except that it will be out in a few months. Kenny says it will have a optional ejector for it much like the 1860 conversions. Of course, I haven't seen one of those and can't find any pictures of 'em so that doesn't mean too much to me.

[Smokin Gun]

I don't know Will, but my Colt Dragoon with an R&D shoots W-W Colt.45LC with 255gr FP soft lead and 30gr FFFGoex just fine. They're kinda stout but I can get a five shot group all touchin at 25yds. Maybe I have the older model that you can see the brass in the top slot of th cylinder. You may have the new model cylinder with the knurling.
http://tinypic.com/fnvfx3.jpg

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I don't know Will, but my Colt Dragoon with an R&D shoots W-W Colt.45LC with 255gr FP soft lead and 39gr FFFGoex just fine.

Mine are tack-nailers, too. I would expect that the gated conversion will be as accurate. I've never handled a Kirst so I can't say how they compare. If Walt comes out with his before R&D, I may find out first hand.